Hi,

I still don't get it. CE-HTML is a closed standard and not something
we ever want in WebKit as we are pushing HTML5/Living Standard.

I understand that you need some execution and security model, but
apart from that I don't see why you don't aim at supporting HTML5
instead of some custom dialect that is moving in another direction
that they rest of the industry. Even with the System Applications
working group [1], which Samsung is co-chairing, the execution and
security model will get solved with proper participation.

Also the need for using XHTML isn't that big anymore, now that HTML5
defines how to actually parse the document.

Cheers
Kenneth

[1] http://www.w3.org/2012/05/sysapps-wg-charter.html



On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 9:26 AM, Mark Toller <mark.tol...@samsung.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> HbbTV and OIPF specifications are available to download from the HbbTV and
> OIPF sites:
>
> http://www.hbbtv.org/pages/about_hbbtv/specification.php
> http://www.oipf.tv/specifications
>
> The closed standard is the CE-HTML standard, which is referenced by OIPF.
> The portions of CE-HTML used by HbbTV and OIPF are essentially a profile of
> W3C standards and the AV Control plugin.
>
> We're currently looking at our changes to identify areas that can be
> delivered back which can provide benefit to Webkit without causing any
> additional maintenance overhead.
>
> What we would like to see initially is Webkit based browsers (Chrome,
> Safari, Minibrowser, etc) actually load HbbTV pages instead of asking the
> user to download the content - this would indirectly benefit the end goal of
> Webkit (to get everyone to support standard W3C/HTML5)... As you can
> imagine, most application authors are web developers, and do not necessarily
> have experience with HbbTV, OIPF or CE-HTML, so they use the standard
> W3C/HTML5/XHTML constructs they are familiar with, except for the TV
> specific API's or plugins. More often than not, they'll write their
> application so that it can also run on a PC browser, because they have far
> better debugging facilities than TVs! However, as soon as the application is
> signalled correctly with an HbbTV or CE-HTML mime type, most browsers then
> just ask to download the page. Also, many test with a browser in 'HTML'
> mode, and not the stricter 'XHTML' mode.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mark.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: aba...@gmail.com [mailto:aba...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Adam Barth
> Sent: 08 October 2012 19:36
> To: Mark Toller
> Cc: webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org
> Subject: Re: [webkit-dev] HbbTV support within Webkit
>
> From your message, it sounds like HbbTV is still not an open standard.
>  I'm skeptical that we should support closed standards in WebKit.
>
> Adam
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 7:11 AM, Mark Toller <mark.tol...@samsung.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> I'd like to ask the Webkit developers their opinion on providing some
>> support for HbbTV [1] within Webkit. Hybrid Broadcast Broadband TV or
>> "HbbTV", is a major new pan-European initiative aimed at harmonising the
>> broadcast and broadband delivery of entertainment to the end consumer
>> through connected TVs and set-top boxes.  The HbbTV standard is proving to
>> be very popular, TVs and STBs supporting HbbTV are shipping in huge
> numbers
>> throughout Europe.  HbbTV is built on top of OIPF [2], which in turn is
>> based on portions of CE-HTML [3].
>>
>>
>>
>> Our lab, Samsung Electronics Research Institute (SERI), has been heavily
>> involved in HbbTV and our current solution is based on Webkit. We would
> like
>> to provide our changes back to the community.
>>
>>
>>
>> I know that support requests for CE-HTML have been briefly touched upon in
>> the past. As I understand it, the main objection to providing support
> within
>> WebKit is that the CE-HTML specification is not freely available, and thus
>> restricts the number of developers who can fully understand it and
> therefore
>> provide fixes / support.
>>
>>
>>
>> In reality, much of the CE-HTML specification simply profiles which parts
> of
>> the W3C standard behaviour are mandatory, optional and/or recommended.
> OIPF
>> then profiles CE-HTML (dropping some requirements, extending others to
> match
>> W3C/HTML5), HbbTV profiles out even more of CE-HTML.
>>
>>
>>
>> Other parts of OIPF and CE-HTML do not need to be implemented within
> Webkit
>> itself. Some can be implemented as object plugins (e.g. AV Control and
> local
>> video), while others, such as the JavaScript classes required, can be
>> inserted into the JavaScriptCore at runtime.
>>
>>
>>
>> What I propose is to provide the basic support required within Webkit in
>> order to at least load the XHTML portions of HbbTV applications and
> provide
>> the correct key handling to drive them. In order to provide 'full' HbbTV
>> support, implementations would need to provide the plugins and additional
>> JavaScript classes to complete the picture.
>>
>>
>>
>> For instance, by simply adding support for the document mime type handling
>> of application/vnd.hbbtv.xhtml+xml and application/ce-html+xml, many HbbTV
>> applications will load and display the main page, and several will also
>> correctly navigate around the application correctly.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Mark.
>>
>>
>>
>> [1] Hybrid Broadcast Broadband TV - http://www.hbbtv.org/
>>
>> [2] Open IPTV Forum - http://www.oipf.tv/
>>
>> [3] CEA, CEA-2014-A, Web-based Protocol Framework for Remote User
> Interface
>> on UPnP Networks and the Internet (Web4CE)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> webkit-dev mailing list
>> webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org
>> http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev
>>
>
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-- 
Kenneth Rohde Christiansen
Senior Engineer, WebKit, Qt, EFL
Phone  +45 4093 0598 / E-mail kenneth at webkit.org

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