Hi Miguel, It's easy. Sorry my friend but you sound a bit like that guy David alluded to who said "just show me the jdbc connection". If you want to gain the insight of something new and different, you have to open your mind and put in some effort to experience it.
On the outside consider this - the equivalent of WOCommunity in the Seaside world has free app hosting for Seaside projects. That's right, write your app and let someone else host it out there on a remote server, and do it for free. How can they do it? because it is easy. What about us? We have nothing free, heck, it's hard to even pay for it. We're left with setting up something complete on EC2 or Linode. Those are good options but please understand just because we understand how to deploy with WO does not mean it is easy. It is actually hard to do in WO (comparatively). The cult of the dead always wants a file or a bundle to touch and caress. Without this crutch they feel out of place. "Monticello" makes version control and app distribution pretty easy. Nobody argues whether to use SVN, CVS, GIT, Darcs, etc... Monticello is the answer. It's all integrated. It just works... You know, like when Apple used to wrap WO in a nice little burrito and you could just click "install". -- Aaron From: Miguel Arroz <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Cc: Chuck Hill <[email protected]>, WebObjects Mailing List <[email protected]> Date: 09/28/2011 01:15 PM Subject: Re: Finding WO people for startups (cult of the dead) Hi, And how easy is it now to move applications between environments? I remember that, when I looked at Seaside, due to all that "liveness" it was really hard to separate an app from an environment, so people would essentially carry away the entire smalltalk environment with it. Seemed quite sketchy and hard to use (and deploy) in the real world, but I could be wrong. If only there were decent frameworks in LISP... Regards Miguel Arroz On 2011-09-28, at 9:38 AM, [email protected] wrote: Hi Chuck, I can feel your gears turning. That's a good thing! 1) PHP is nothing but a template file (with embedded programming) 2) WO has a template file, a programming file, and it also has "in-line" binding which I've never been a fan of. Then there is the OGNL too... 3) Seaside is nothing but programming logic. So PHP is on one side and Seaside is on the other. WO is in the middle. We all can agree that the PHP, JSP, etc. way is a nightmare. You can make good software but you have to work harder. WO way is better. For many years I really liked the way the .html / .wod was nothing but presentation and bindings. OGNL is cool for quick and dirty but it didn't feel right to me being too cluttered like the PHP way and hard to debug. Inline bindings also clutter the HTML file and never resonated with me either. Maybe... perhaps its cool for a WOString with a single value but anything other than that... I'd rather someone use the .wod file. The Apple way was insane, you had to do all inline bindings or none. The WOnder way is best, able to mix the two. In WO there is the minor hassle of finding the line in HTML that matches up with the .wod file. Using WOlips this is easy because it finds it for you and jumps you right there to synchronize the two files in a split view. One thing WOLips can't do is refactor that code. Only Java code is refactorable. You also have to be extremely astute that you output correct and balanced HTML Seaside way is best. By using a living language, everything is immediate, you don't feel the urge to cheat like with OGNL. By removing the template file entirely and using objects you get so many benefits. 1) No extra files to coordinate. 2) no HTML syntax problems. 3) you can refactor ALL of your code, not just the business logic. 4) you can still partition your presentation logic - but instead of putting it in a different file you put it in a method. 5) did I mention everything is alive? There isn't even a source code file to deal with. No compiling, no interpreting static files, no need for an add-on like JavaRebel. In Eclipse you can query for methods given part of a name you remember. In Smalltalk you can query for methods that take such and such parameters and evoke a certain value, you don't even have to know the method name. Smalltalk will immediately give you a handful of methods that do "greatest common denominator" for example. "Living" versus "Living Dead" there is a difference but I digress. Here is an example of how presentation is rendered in Seaside. Bare in mind that "renderContentOn" is akin to "appendToResponse". And that "html" is an object which gets passed into the method that is a bit like a WOContext and a String buffer rolled into one. In this example it is going to render an HTML table with table rows and table data cells: renderContentOn: html html table: [ html tableRow: [ html tableData: [html text: 'Table entry']]; tableRow: [ html tableData: [html text: 'Table entry']]]. Look foreign? Perhaps but it's worth getting your feet wet and kicking these ideas around. I've seen many things and this is the first set of tools and processes that make me feel good. Like it is equivalent and perhaps better than WO. It's brain dead easy to install and there are a number of tutorials out there. -- Aaron From: Chuck Hill <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Cc: WebObjects Mailing List <[email protected]> Date: 09/27/2011 06:02 PM Subject: Re: Finding WO people for startups (cult of the dead) Hi Aaron, On 2011-09-27, at 9:19 AM, [email protected] wrote: > What is cool about Smalltalk / Seaside with respect to WO? > > 5) Even better than "in-line" binding it has no template file what-so-ever by design. All your HTML output is coded in the programming language. No more unbalanced DIV tags. Everything is refactorable. Is that better? In my imagination that makes it like PHP. Would that not obstruct what little view of page structure that is still there in WO? -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list ([email protected]) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/arroz%40guiamac.com This email sent to [email protected]
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