+1 I still think that for a new project it's wise to use WO. Even if it's old stuff ;) because of Wonder and because of what you can do really quickly! I even looked at other frameworks out there just to be fair and nothing comes even close! Maybe tapestry+cayenne? Anyway, for me it's WO for the foreseeable future... So I'd better move my ass and start contributing to Wonder!
Matteo On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 6:58 PM, ISHIMOTO Ken <k...@ksroom.com> wrote: > +1 > > I am now and in the future will use WO fro all my Projects. I am tired to > learn new stuff. > > I can make and fix with WO & Wonder everything I need, and that's OK. > > Ken > > > > On 2012/03/28, at 17:34, Chuck Hill wrote: > > > The sun set on WO a long time ago (well, assuming you think that it ever > really shined on WO). For new projects, WebObjects and Wonder is still my > choice until I find something _better_ not just newer. I am not moving to > something newer and worse because WO is old (though I might move to > something newer and worse if using WO is an impediment to getting new > work). When I find something better, I am gone. I've been looking since > 1999 or so... I look on WebObjects more as a completed library, not an EOL > product with no future. Wonder is the source of new features. Granted, > that means no bug fixes that can't be done in Wonder, but what software do > you use that does NOT have bugs? > > > > > > Chuck > > > > On 2012-03-28, at 8:02 AM, John Huss wrote: > > > >> Technologies come and go; there is a lifecycle for everything. That is > a fundamental attribute of software development. The fact that WebObjects > has endured for so long as a relevant and useful piece of technology is > amazing. But like all technologies, it can't last forever. The sun is > setting (or has set) on WO. It's time to move on; that's what programmers > do - our toolset evolves over time - usually it changes dramatically every > 5-10 years. This is just another evolution whose time has come. > >> > >> It is sort of sweet and heart-warming to see the outpouring of > affection for WO, but the reality is that it's time to move on. The best > thing you can do for WO now is to gain experience with other technologies > and then help people migrate to them. Cayenne should be at the top of this > list. On the HTML side, I'd love have someone find out how hard it is to > migrate WO components to Tapestry. > >> > >> The reality is that WO is LEGACY technology. It should be treated as > such. That means you continue to maintain your apps that use WO, you find > a new technology, and you write your new apps in something else. > >> > >> John > >> > >> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 8:18 AM, Pascal Robert <prob...@macti.ca> > wrote: > >> > >> Le 2012-03-28 à 08:44, Q a écrit : > >> > >>> > >>> On 28/03/2012, at 9:38 AM, Pascal Robert wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>> Le 2012-03-27 à 19:30, Mike Schrag a écrit : > >>>> > >>>>>>>> "I think we should use the funds to pay people to fix issues that > the majority of users are having. The issues will be voted by the community > and the most voted issues will become the highest priorities." > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> That is not how Wonder was created and now how I expect that it > will continue. If you have a problem, learn how to fix it. Then put it in > Wonder. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> In the past, we had Apple sponsorship and most of the big additions > to Wonder between 2007 and 2010 came from Apple… We don't have that > sponsorship anymore, and personally I don't think we will survive if we > don't pay people for major stuff. I don't think we will survive anyway, but > that's another story… > >>>>> Apple funded a VERY small percentage of the contributions to Wonder. > Almost all of the contributions I made came from mDimension donating their > time, bandwidth, and hardware for the good of the community. Frankly, if > Apple hadn't funded the things they did, I would have done them anyway, > because I just enjoyed making things. > >>>>> > >>>>> This approach of paying for fixes seems like you're just going to > end up with a collection of bounty hunters instead of a community. On top > of that, there's no way you're going to be able to afford to pay the market > cost for this work. mDimension easily donated a couple hundred thousand > dollars of time if you applied their real hourly rate to the work. So on > top of encouraging people to only give if they get paid, they're going to > be paid crap, so why would anyone even bother? > >>>>> > >>>>> I really don't think things are stagnant because of the lack of > money. They're stagnant because the remaining people in the community don't > care enough to contribute. I don't buy any of the "I don't know how to do > X" or "I don't have time to do X." You have to want it. I didn't know how > to write nearly any of what was in WOLips before I started working on > WOLips, and likewise with Wonder. I learned WebObjects working on Wonder. > I'm would wager that everyone who worked on Wonder was in the same > category. Contribution is also positive reinforcement. The coolest times in > Wonder for me were always when one person contributing got someone else > energized to contribute and amazing things were made. > >>>>> > >>>>> The real question is: Who is currently NOT contributing because > they're just waiting for a payday to do so? If you're perfectly happy > enjoying the fruits of the community while not giving back to the > community, look in the mirror for the reason it's dying. Either give a > shit, or don't be sad that it dies. > >>>> > >>> > >>> I agree with mike's statement, and can relate. I have worked on many > different parts of WOLips, Wonder and numerous other projects, and more > often than not I had no idea where to start, all I knew was what I wanted > to achieve. You just have to know what you want to do, and don't give up > until you succeed or know that it can't be done. Some of the code I have > contributed took me over a year to get right (arguably some of it still > isn't), and there are other things I have been working on sporadically > (because it's not something I need yet) for close to 4 years now that could > be great, or may never be finished, I still don't know which. I won't even > mention the number of experiments I have abandoned because they couldn't be > made to work the way I had hoped. Nobody could justify paying for that > time, particularly to someone who had no idea how to do it in the first > place, and with possibly nothing to show for it at the end. > >>> > >>> For me it has never been about getting payment, recognition, or > privilege. The sole reason I have spent thousands of hours of my own time > working on code for the sole purpose of giving it away is one of moral duty > and respect for the people who did it before me and still do it today. They > have spent innumerable hours they could have used to do paid work, donated > resources and sacrificed time with their families and friends, so that we > could benefit from their generosity. People like David Terán who gave more > of his life to this community than you would think possible. I do it, > because they did it before me, it's my payment for using their work. > >>> > >>> My advice for the community is to stop getting hung up thinking up > ways to better market and grow the community. Instead simply remember what > made it what it is, good people, supporting each other and donating their > time and effort to make it better than it was yesterday. Step up, do > something, make a difference, do it now, no matter how small, in whatever > way you can. > >> > >> Did the community grow by simply supporting each other (and I won't say > that people support each other, and I'm not aware of any community where > everyone give and take)? How a shrinking community is going to get better? > Especially after that most experts left it or can't contribute? Did we have > new leaders who risen up in the last two years? Do we have new sponsors > like mDimension or Apple were? How can we find sponsors when most of the > community are small (one or two guys) shops? > >> > >> Anyway, I'm giving up (no, WOWODC 2012 won't be cancelled). > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > >> Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) > >> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > >> > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/johnthuss%40gmail.com > >> > >> This email sent to johnth...@gmail.com > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > >> Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) > >> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > >> > https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net > >> > >> This email sent to ch...@global-village.net > > > > -- > > Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development > > > > Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall > knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. > > http://www.global-village.net/gvc/practical_webobjects > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Do not post admin requests to the list. 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