Ian
Thanks for your interest in the issue.
> > > I quoted Andrew Fedoniouk
> > > (http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-March/010186.html),
> > > "There are use cases when frames are good. As an example: online (and
> > > offline) help systems ... In such cases they provide level of usability
> > > higher than any other method of presenting content of such type."
> > >
> > > I've not seen a counterexample. Have you?> >
> > I believe Andrew's statement to be incorrect.>
> If your belief is correct, there must be sites which accomplish this
> spec with tables + iframes (for example). No contributor has managed to
> point to them.
I don't know if there are pages that do this (and I sure hope none are
using <table> for it!), but the lack of an existence proof is not proof of
the lack of existence.
Of course. The point is if no-one can point to a working iframes
solution, ie, to an instance of them actually being preferred, the claim
that iframes provide a preferable alternative is simply not credible, to
put it mildly.
>However, in the interests of moving this on, I made an example here in
>about ten minutes:
>http://damowmow.com/playground/demos/framesets-with-iframes/001.html
Yes, iframes can implement some features of the spec. See above.
PB
-----
Ian Hickson wrote:
On Mon, 12 Oct 2009, Peter Brawley wrote:
I quoted Andrew Fedoniouk
(http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-March/010186.html),
"There are use cases when frames are good. As an example: online (and
offline) help systems ... In such cases they provide level of usability
higher than any other method of presenting content of such type."
I've not seen a counterexample. Have you?
I believe Andrew's statement to be incorrect.
If your belief is correct, there must be sites which accomplish this
spec with tables + iframes (for example). No contributor has managed to
point to them.
I don't know if there are pages that do this (and I sure hope none are
using <table> for it!), but the lack of an existence proof is not proof of
the lack of existence.
However, in the interests of moving this on, I made an example here in
about ten minutes:
http://damowmow.com/playground/demos/framesets-with-iframes/001.html
It doesn't do the resizing, and I didn't test it in IE so it probably
needs some hacks to work around some bugs there, but it works fine for me
in Safari. Resizing in a single page in general is a solved problem, you
can probably slap a little JS on there and it would be supported too. (It
should be easier to do, mind you; that's a CSS problem though, and affects
more than just frames.)
search engines can't index into them (search is a critical part of help
systems), pages in them can't easily be bookmarked
A DB row is a tree node and it must be possible to block bookmarking of such
rows.
Framesets don't block bookmarking of such rows. They just make it harder.
(A user can always right-click a frame and get the URL to bookmark it.)
AJAX can block bookmarking of such rows, though.
On Mon, 12 Oct 2009, Peter Brawley wrote:
There are good database reasons to block bookmarks to table rows, so
that must be doable.
That's fair enough, but framesets don't provide that possibility. They
only make bookmarking significantly harder; they don't make it impossible.
Indeed there have been a number of browsers over the years who have
implemented various hacks whereby the user can bookmark the entire state
of a frameset. The usability of such hacks has been poor, but the point is
that if the requirement is that bookmarking not work, frames don't
actually fulfill that need.
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