Thank you, Alexey for your words. I can also add to that the fact that people
doing crimes against humanity and people photodocumenting the preciousness of
our large planet are mostly different people. I can understand the feelings
that can form in one's head towards anything connected to a specific country,
but that is not what Wikimedia Movement is about.
--
Nikolai Bulykin (User:Красный). воскресенье, 21 января 2024г., 12:59 +06:00 от
Aleksey Chalabyan [email protected] :
>Dear all,
>
>I wanted to add my 2 cents, since I'll be at another wikimedia call and will
>miss this call (or most of it) and since last time I followed principle of
>least drama.
>
>I am seriously afraid stepping into this territory will open a Pandora's box
>with dozens of requests to exclude this or that country, arbitration of those
>requests etc, making organisation of WLM, WLE and any other international
>cooperation much, much less pleasent and if doable per se. It will fill more
>like all-against-all UN session or international court - then a collaborative,
>friendly place to make a wiki photo contest to get more free photos of
>monuments from every corner of the world.
>
>Unfortunately, there are many wars and conflicts, and many cultural genocides.
>Some get more media coverage, some less. But there will be a long line of
>countries to ban if we go there. And if we do - I personally, will add couple
>more countries to the top of the list, with a sound proofs of decades of
>cultural genocide done by them.
>
>Also there are countries with great track of preserving monuments, even if
>those are of another culture/religion, no wars started in centuries, but very
>poor track record of human rights in general, and let's say woman and LGBT
>rights in particular. Are those countries "good enough to play with us" or
>not?
>
>How about cases where monuments are preserved but culturally apropriated? How
>about millitary suppliers and military allies of countries we'll ban? How
>about countries where UNESCO officials were caught bribed by regimes to cover
>up acts of cultural genocide? How about UNESCO itself?
>How far do we go in our Wiki Loves Justice campaign?
>
>I mention no country name now on purpose, to preserve comfortable
>collaborative environment and not make anyone feel like they needs to defend
>themselves. I believe any true Wikimedian in good standing should feel safe
>and comfortable here for our international cooperation to be possible. Even if
>their governments and military do unforgivable and unforgettable crimes - as
>we speak, or a year, 10 or 100 years ago.
>
>That's not how and where we should punish those governments and regimes. And
>let's be frank they won't care. We'd just go far away from our mission and
>make our lives worse - less fun and less meaningful, and the only part we'd
>punish will be victims on the other side.
>
>P.S. Sorry for long letter, was short on time. (c)
>
>Love and peace,
>Aleksey a.k.a Xelgen
>2024 թ. հնվ 21, կիր, 5:07 effe iets anders < [email protected]>
>օգտատերը գրել է․
>>Hi Illia,
>>
>>thanks for letting us know. I understand the constraints you must be dealing
>>with, and I wish we could have announced this earlier (not limited to your
>>situation - this is desirable for other reasons too). Please know that it was
>>not our intention to announce it last minute, but that we realized too late
>>that time was running out for this in the way I explained. Hopefully we can
>>indeed better meet the timeliness expectations going forward.
>>
>>Lodewijk
>>On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 1:04PM Ilya Korniyko < [email protected]> wrote:
>>>Hi Lodewijk,
>>>
>>>WLM Ukraine's organizing team is interested in this discussion, but it's
>>>difficult to find time for it on such a short notice -- because of the armed
>>>conflict most Ukrainian Wikimedians have to simultaneously fit into their
>>>agendas their main work, Wikimedia volunteering and activities we have to do
>>>because of the war. For example, I have an emergency casualty care training
>>>this Sunday, and another team member cannot join because she goes to a
>>>training area for drills on the same day.
>>>
>>>We ask that you take these circumstances into consideration and notify us in
>>>advance in the future.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Illia
>>>
>>>On Wed, Jan 17, 2024 at 2:23AM effe iets anders < [email protected]>
>>>wrote:
>>>>Hi all,
>>>>(with apologies for the delay in sending this announcement)
>>>>This email discusses a sensitive topic of armed conflict, and may contain
>>>>triggers for some of our community members. While we appreciate your input,
>>>>please prioritize your own mental wellbeing and don't feel obligated to
>>>>respond or participate. I have tried to frame this as sensitively as
>>>>possible, but welcome constructive suggestions on how to do this better
>>>>off-list.
>>>>Summary : On Sunday 21 January (08:00 PST, 16:00 UTC), the international
>>>>team of Wiki Loves Monuments will organize an office hour/community
>>>>conversation on: How should an international federated photo competition
>>>>like WLM handle national teams, international finalists and communication
>>>>in the case of geopolitical armed conflict. We will announce the link
>>>>later, and you can register here:
>>>>https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2023/Office_hour
>>>>
>>>>Topic : In the past years, our communities have been confronted with the
>>>>question how to deal with a number of geopolitical armed conflicts. This
>>>>question came up in the past years in a few different ways: whether photos
>>>>of heritage from certain countries should be allowed to be represented or
>>>>compete in international competitions like Wiki Loves Monuments, whether
>>>>and how photos of heritage in disputed areas can participate (especially
>>>>when that dispute becomes an armed conflict) and there are probably more
>>>>ways ahead that various armed conflicts can make an international
>>>>competition and communication about the competition complex. There is no
>>>>question whether human and cultural destruction is desirable, and every war
>>>>is likely one too many.
>>>>Why now : It is particularly hard to discuss these sensitive topics when
>>>>they are current: it is a painful conversation for everyone to have,
>>>>especially because the people who are living through the real-life
>>>>consequences are given an additional burden of engaging in these
>>>>discussions, under the pressure of time.
>>>>For this reason I believe it would be helpful to discuss this topic without
>>>>focusing on a specific conflict - but rather to discuss principles. How
>>>>would we, generally speaking, international competitions such as Wiki Loves
>>>>Monuments like to be influenced by armed conflict? Are there guidelines
>>>>that they could maintain? At this point, we don't know who the winners of
>>>>Wiki Loves Monuments are, and we can still have an abstract conversation. I
>>>>don't expect this conversation to conclude right away, but hope that we can
>>>>continue it in a few months after the dust of the winning images has
>>>>settled.
>>>>While this is already very soon, we have settled on Sunday 21 January,
>>>>16:00 UTC to avoid getting too close to the announcement of international
>>>>winners.
>>>>Framing : Some questions that come to mind as useful conversation starters
>>>>would include:
>>>>* Under what conditions could or should a national team be disqualified
>>>>from participating in an international federated activity such as WLM?
>>>>* If yes, who should make the decision whether to disqualify, and using
>>>>what criteria? Who should they consult?
>>>>* Under what conditions could or should the national submissions be
>>>>disqualified, if a national competition already has taken place?
>>>>* Should the international team make efforts to not appear to support an
>>>>armed conflict when communicating about the competition, or even previous
>>>>events? What are some guidelines that they could follow?
>>>>I would invite others to contribute in framing a constructive conversation
>>>>(publicly or privately - when in doubt, just email me privately).
>>>>Conversation timeline : We want this to be the start of a constructive
>>>>community conversation with national organizers, international organizers
>>>>and other community members who feel they can constructively contribute. We
>>>>welcome contributions from organizers of other similar international
>>>>competitions/activities. The conversation will be in English but if there
>>>>is sufficient interest, we can see if we can organize translation resources
>>>>in future conversations. You can sign up here:
>>>>https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2023/Office_hour
>>>> . Please do sign up, in case we have to share the link privately.
>>>>As mentioned, I don't expect this conversation to be "one and done". It's a
>>>>first step, and I expect to follow up with a next conversation in a few
>>>>months, and again around Wikimania - if there is sufficient interest.
>>>>I will guide this conversation as a former WLM international team member
>>>>and a current advisor.
>>>>Warmly,
>>>>Lodewijk _______________________________________________
>>>>Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
>>>>To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>[email protected]
>>>>http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
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