Hi, Thanks to Osmar and Marco for getting some more detailed background information on the developments in Chile.
I think that the points Osmar made can lay the groundwork for a path that unite the important principle of net neutrality with the free access to knowledge/education stuff like Wikipedia. We all should develop this discussion transparently together in a global framework even if I can understand that WMF would like to keep some of its own legal work in this field out of public mailinglists etc. Not sure if there is a critical discussion about all this developments planned at Wikimania, but I would appreciate if the WMF or interested active volunteers would continue on this discussion in London and/or on Meta. best regards Jens Best 2014-06-02 6:08 GMT+02:00 Marco Correa <marcorrea.pe...@gmail.com>: > I asked to the Chilean Undersecretary of Telecommunications in Twitter, and > he confirmed that Wikipedia Zero and the zero-rated programs are not > forbidden in Chile. He said that the criteria applied is based on practices > of providers. [1] > > I'm also happy to read that the WMF thinks that Wikipedia Zero could be > applied in our country. > > Best, > > Marco Correa > WMCL Board Member > > [1] https://twitter.com/huichalaf/status/473310511711682560 > > > 2014-06-01 23:17 GMT-04:00 Osmar Valdebenito <b1mbo.wikipe...@gmail.com>: > > > Regarding the news from Chile, the QZ article is pretty misleading > > regarding the decision taken by the Subtel. I've been talking with some > > people that have been more involved in net neutrality discussions in > Chile > > and they say that the decision doesn't forbid zero-rated programs in > > general. It just says that the current promotions were illegal, > considering > > certain social networks got preferential access (namely, Twitter, > Facebook > > and WhatsApp) over other services, breaking net neutrality and free > market > > rules. The decree says specifically that arbitrary discrimination between > > services of "similar nature" is forbidden. > > > > Technically, Wikipedia Zero can still be applied in Chile (if mobile > > providers agree), but there shouldn't be a preferential treatment > compared > > to those platform "of similar nature". Certainly, it would be interesting > > to know what might be considered as the competition of Wikipedia and the > > rest of the market (is there a competing website? can we consider all > > educational resources as competition?). As far as I know, there were some > > internet pre-paid plans in the past that had several educational websites > > available for free, including Wikipedia, but I'm not sure if they are > still > > available. > > > > The full decree (in Spanish) is available here: > > > > > http://www.subtel.gob.cl/transparencia/Perfiles/Transparencia20285/Normativas/Oficios/14oc_0040.pdf > > > > > > 2014-06-01 3:57 GMT-04:00 Yana Welinder <ywelin...@wikimedia.org>: > > > > > As the Quartz article from Jens's email discusses, the decision in > Chile > > is > > > very unfortunate.[1] It's an example of when net neutrality — which is > an > > > important principle for the free and open internet — is poorly > > implemented > > > to prevent free dissemination of knowledge. Although Wikipedia Zero is > > not > > > yet available in Chile, it is a country of interest for the program, so > > we > > > are thinking about what options are available in light of this > decision. > > > > > > That said, I would like to clarify a couple of points about the > > > implementation of Wikipedia Zero that were raised in this thread: > > > > > > 1. The newer Wikipedia Zero partnerships have provided the full > Wikipedia > > > sites (m.wikipedia) free of data charges for some time now and we are > > > phasing out the reduced version (zero.wikipedia) from the older > > > partnerships. > > > > > > 2. While earlier Wikipedia Zero partnerships only zero-rated Wikipedia, > > we > > > are working on getting carriers to zero-rate all the Wikimedia > projects. > > > > > > 3. We are also working on getting editing functions zero-rated, though > > > there are some technical hurdles for that right now. But, eventually, > > > Wikipedia Zero will not only make knowledge more accessible, but also > > > empower more people in the Global South to contribute to the projects. > > > > > > 4. Finally, WMF does *not* pay carriers to zero-rate Wikipedia under > > > Wikipedia Zero. Carriers zero-rate the sites because they want to make > a > > > commitment to access to knowledge as a corporate social > > responsibility.[2] > > > I believe this question has already been answered in this thread since > > > Scott raised it earlier, but I just wanted to confirm that Wikipedia > Zero > > > does not involve payments. > > > > > > Hope this is helpful! > > > > > > Best, > > > Yana > > > > > > [1] > > > > > > > > > http://qz.com/215064/when-net-neutrality-backfires-chile-just-killed-free-access-to-wikipedia-and-facebook/ > > > [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_social_responsibility > > > > > > -- > > > Yana Welinder > > > Legal Counsel > > > Wikimedia Foundation > > > 415.839.6885 ext. 6867 > > > @yanatweets <https://twitter.com/yanatweets> > > > > > > NOTICE: As an attorney for the Wikimedia Foundation, for legal/ethical > > > reasons I cannot give legal advice to, or serve as a lawyer for, > > community > > > members, volunteers, or staff members in their personal capacity. For > > more > > > on what this means, please see our legal disclaimer > > > <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Legal_Disclaimer>. > > > > > > On Sat, May 31, 2014 at 5:52 AM, Jens Best <jens.b...@wikimedia.de> > > wrote: > > > > > > > News from Chile > > > > > > > > Chile’s Subsecretaria de Telecomunicaciones just decided that > > zero-rating > > > > is a promotion tool which is against net neutrality. Therefore all > > > > zero-rated-related marketing deals have to stop at the 1st of June. > > > > According to a WMF-list in Chile no provider has been offering > > Wikipedia > > > > Zero. Also I'm not sure if this dismissal reflects only on zero-rated > > > > offers where payment of money is done by the content provider. So it > > > still > > > > needs to be checked how/if this decision is influencing our intent to > > > > spread Wikipedia Zero. > > > > > > > > All in all it shows that we have to improve our arguments in a > broader > > > > scale if we don't want to get caught by promoting Free Knowledge" but > > in > > > > fact 'only' pushing the use of a reduced version of one (very well > > known > > > > and superb) website which stand exemplary for this idea. We are > caught > > > in a > > > > dilemma which imho only can be solved when reaching out to more > > partners > > > > which stand for Free Knowledge and Free Education. Not sure how this > > > could > > > > work, but fortunately that never was a reason to stop. > > > > > > > > News from Chile: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://qz.com/215064/when-net-neutrality-backfires-chile-just-killed-free-access-to-wikipedia-and-facebook/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.subtel.gob.cl/noticias/138-neutralidad-red/5311-ley-de-neutralidad-y-redes-sociales-gratis?_ga=1.143290485.1915805894.1400742323 > > > > > > > > Overview Wikipedia Zero: > > > > > > > > https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Mobile_partnerships > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2014-05-30 6:59 GMT+02:00 rupert THURNER <rupert.thur...@gmail.com>: > > > > > > > > > participation is another aspect. wp zero allows free reading. it > does > > > > > not allow free participation. write emails, search for references, > > > > > download and adjust code. just as a side note, the oxford > university > > > > > stated: until 2012, europe, i.e. 10% of the worlds population, > > > > > produced 50%+ of wikipedias geotagged contents [1]. > > > > > > > > > > imo it is not necessary to terminate wikipedia zero, it "just" > needs > > > > > to be negotiated differently: if a telco wants to support our case, > > > > > give every person 200mb free internet access. unrestricted. or, if > we > > > > > need to break some law like now or be in the grey area, we could > > > > > support additionally a viral model, like: if somebody is a > wikipedia > > > > > contributor (as defined in election criteria, or like in ghana, 3 > > > > > edits per week), give them 2 GB free internet traffic for free, > > > > > unrestricted. > > > > > > > > > > if the WMF legal department would be able to negotiate _this_ e.g. > in > > > > > nigeria or india, i would have _big_ respect for them, and with > > > > > pleasure say in future: you guys are worth every cent of the 5 > > million > > > > > we pay you a year. > > > > > > > > > > [1] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://geography.oii.ox.ac.uk/?page=the-geographically-uneven-coverage-of-wikipedia > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 12:43 AM, Jens Best < > jens.b...@wikimedia.de> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > "Giving access to educational resources" isn't the same statement > > as > > > > > > "zero-rating wikipedia" - If the mobile providers are willing to > > give > > > > > more > > > > > > open educational ressources (incl. video) a zero-rated access to > > the > > > > > people > > > > > > THEN you can say "giving access to educational ressources for > > free" - > > > > > right > > > > > > now it 'only' means "giving free access to wikipedia" (which is > > great > > > > and > > > > > > awesome for the wikipedia and the people). > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's not be naive on the point that mobile providers have > > different > > > > > > motivations for zero-rating services as the movement has for > > fighting > > > > for > > > > > > free knowledge around the globe. > > > > > > > > > > > > In the beginning it was mainly zero.wikipedia (text-only), now > more > > > and > > > > > > more providers giving access to m.wikipedia (some-pictures), but > > > where > > > > > are > > > > > > their restrictions and what will these restrictions mean for > > further > > > > > > development on free knowledge and free education? - And above > that > > > what > > > > > > will be our argument when other free knowledge/free education > > > > > organisations > > > > > > don't get zero-rated? When it becomes clear that the marketing > > scoop > > > of > > > > > > giving "free wikipedia" wasn't at all meant as the start of > giving > > > free > > > > > > access to free knowledge around the world? > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm all in to make all open knowledge and all open educational > > > > ressources > > > > > > zero-rated available around the globe - but I'm also quite sure > > that > > > > this > > > > > > is not the deal the mobile providers are looking forward to. I > > prefer > > > > to > > > > > > stay critical and not giving up an important principle like net > > > > > neutrality > > > > > > just because some mobile providers made a nice marketing deal > with > > us > > > > > which > > > > > > seemed to serve our own goals in short-term, but isn't reflected > > > enough > > > > > on > > > > > > its deeper implications on a free web and its liberated use. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > best regards > > > > > > > > > > > > Jens Best > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2014-05-29 23:31 GMT+02:00 Marc A. Pelletier <m...@uberbox.org>: > > > > > > > > > > > >> On 05/29/2014 05:24 PM, Jens Best wrote: > > > > > >> > A noble cause > > > > > >> > doesn't necessarily make breaking an important principle > > > > > unproblematic. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> In my opinion, if the definition of the principle makes the > > > obviously > > > > > >> perverse conclusion that a beneficial thing like giving access > to > > > > > >> educational resources for free to the world's least economically > > > > > >> fortunate people "a bad thing", then the definition is obviously > > > > broken. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > It could be the time to start talking > > > > > >> > globally about an in-the-future exit strategy on the surely > > noble > > > > > >> > initiative e.g. when certain milestones are reached in > > > participating > > > > > >> > countries/regions. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> So you're telling me that there is a point where we can say "Oh, > > you > > > > > >> can't afford access? Too bad." and it's not a bad thing because > > > some > > > > > >> /other/ metric has been reached? > > > > > >> > > > > > >> -- Marc > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Jens Best > > > > > > Präsidium > > > > > > Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. > > > > > > web: http://www.wikimedia.de > > > > > > mail: jens.best <http://goog_17221883>@wikimedia.de > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > Unsubscribe: > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > Jens Best > > > > Präsidium > > > > Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. > > > > web: http://www.wikimedia.de > > > > mail: jens.best <http://goog_17221883>@wikimedia.de > > > > > > > > Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens > e.V. > > > > Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts > > > > Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig > > > > anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, > > > > Steuernummer 27/681/51985. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > -- -- Jens Best Präsidium Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. web: http://www.wikimedia.de mail: jens.best <http://goog_17221883>@wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
