On Saturday, 23 April 2016, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hoi,
> Governance worth a damn... <grin> Did you know that I introduced Jan Bart
> to Jimmy </grin> the rest is also history.


Yes Gerard, you're very very important. Much more so than me. Well done.

>
> But honestly. In the final analysis the more importance is given to the
> board, the more it shows a dysfunctional movement. When governance is so
> relevant, the first thing to do is not to micro-manage. That is what the
> board is not supposed to do and when something did not go right, remember
> that they are people. Ask yourself how we as a movement suffer instead or
> when you find that a certain behaviour did not win the beauty contest.
>
>
I know the board are people. I also know the people their actions affect
are people. I am agreed that the board is too prominent - see also the
spinoff thread - and given too much importance. But when the board sets
direction on almost everything that costs money, it's function or
dysfunction is absolutely an 'important thing'

I'm going to drop this thread because it is relatively clear we are not
making any progress, in either direction, on convincing the other one we're
right. But hey, at least neither of us demanded the other question their
own sanity :p


> This whole affair is backward. It does not help us forward, it does hinder
> and it takes energy away from those things that really matter.
> Thanks,
>        GerardM
>
> On 17 April 2016 at 22:13, Oliver Keyes <ironho...@gmail.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 3:55 PM, Gerard Meijssen
> > <gerard.meijs...@gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > > Hoi,
> > > So when as a result of your yihad the worst of what you imagine comes
> > out,
> > > the most you have achieved is that you can say "this is why I think he
> is
> > > an asshole". Then what. It does not change a thing. We are still intend
> > on
> > > sharing the sum of all knowledge. You still have to do a lot of
> > convincing
> > > before most other people would agree with you.
> > >
> > > The problem with your single issue approach is achieves more turmoil
> than
> > > anything else. I fail to understand people like you. It is no longer
> > about
> > > what we hope to achieve. I have tried to engage you in meaningful talk
> > but
> > > for me it failed.
> >
> > From what I can see, "what we hope to achieve" is governance worth a
> > damn. It's people in key positions not using those positions as
> > weapons. It's people taking empathy and consideration and fiduciary
> > duties seriously. Now, if the absence of these doesn't affect you, I'm
> > profoundly jealous, but the fact that you do not understand why
> > Jimmy's behaviour makes it difficult to claim he's a suitable
> > participant in Wikimedia's governance does not change that a lot of
> > other people do have concerns - not just me, not just Andreas.
> >
> > >
> > > The one question that I have. In all your hiha I have not understood
> that
> > > you understand what it is what Jimmy uniquely brings to our community.
> He
> > > is really effective as an ambassador for what we do. In this there is
> > noone
> > > who can replace him. How do you want to replace him. Arguably the
> latest
> > > crop of board members have shown how hard it is in the first place to
> > make
> > > a meaningful contribution.
> >
> > Who said anything about replacing him as an ambassador? When Jimmy is
> > mentioned in the media it's in the context of being Wikipedia's
> > founder, not one of a dozen-odd board members, and unless there's an
> > IEG for the invention of a TARDIS I don't think anyone is removing his
> > founder status. The question is simply whether he is a suitable person
> > to indefinitely sit on the Board of Trustees, making governance
> > decisions, given the behaviour he has shown.
> >
> > > Thanks,
> > >        GerardM
> > >
> > > On 17 April 2016 at 20:20, Andreas Kolbe <jayen...@gmail.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On March 21, Jimmy posted excerpts from an email conversation he'd had
> > with
> > >> James Heilman on his Wikipedia user talk page, making further
> > allegations
> > >> against James.[1]
> > >>
> > >> James replied twice:
> > >>
> > >> <quote>
> > >>
> > >> Jimmy Wales' summary above of our email correspondence is far from
> > >> complete, and is not an accurate representation of the overall
> > discussion.
> > >> Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:22, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
> > >>
> > >> Jimbo, you quoted some passages of our mails above. Would you have any
> > >> objection to my posting the complete exchange, so that the parts you
> > quoted
> > >> can be seen in context? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:09, 31
> > March
> > >> 2016 (UTC)
> > >>
> > >> <end of quote>
> > >>
> > >> Jimmy Wales ignored the latter question until the thread was archived.
> > >>
> > >> So – will the community get to see the complete exchange or not, so
> that
> > >> everyone can judge for themselves how it was misrepresented by Jimmy's
> > >> selective quoting?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> [1]
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_206#What_James_said_publicly_.282.29
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 12:37 PM, Fæ <fae...@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > If we are going to have more elections, can we please hold Jimmy to
> > >> > account this year rather than waiting for him to leave the board
> under
> > >> > his own steam?
> > >> >
> > >> > His use of "utter fucking bullshit", then using these distraction
> > >> > politics to avoid answering basic questions intended to deal with
> his
> > >> > repeated public allegations of lying against a respected community
> > >> > member, is not what the Wikimedia movement needs or wants from a
> > >> > Trustee, or someone who represents the movement to the press.
> > >> >
> > >> > If Jimmy were a WMF employee, he'd be gone by now.
> > >> >
> > >> > P.S. We are still waiting for Jimmy to publish his interviews with
> WMF
> > >> > employees resulting from his trip to SF, when he was claiming to act
> > >> > for the WMF board, I can't be bothered to work out how many weeks
> ago
> > >> > that was. Is this sort of promise that Jimmy would call "bullshit"
> if
> > >> > it was yet another person he had an ongoing feud with?
> > >> >
> > >> > Fae
> > >> >
> > >> > On 11 April 2016 at 12:24, Andy Mabbett <a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk
> <javascript:;>>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > > On 23 March 2016 at 11:48, Andy Mabbett <
> a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk <javascript:;>>
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> > >> On 23 March 2016 at 10:01, Jimmy Wales <jimmywa...@wikia-inc.com
> <javascript:;>>
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >>> But I did publish something on my user talk page that is
> relevant.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> Diff, please.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Answer came there none...
> > >> >
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