Abandoning notability and verifiability is a wide open sign for spammers
and hoaxers. We have enough of that without giving them an engraved
invitation.
If published sources are biased, the efforts to correct that should be made
at the source (literally) level. Just like rather than "disputing" a
reliable source, if we found evidence that contradicts them, we'd ask them
to correct, and then once they do we'll update the article accordingly
based on their correction. Wikipedia is not there to second-guess what
sources choose to publish or find "alternative" or "non-western" or
whatever else have you types of information. If our references are flawed,
the solution lies in getting them to correct what they're doing, not
"correcting" for any perceived bias by editors. We reflect sources, we do
not second-guess, dispute, or correct them.
Todd
On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 10:46 AM, Peter Southwood <
peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
When Wikipedia was new and unknown there were not so many people wanting
to use it for purposes that conflict with our purposes. Times change.
Cheers,
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 5:30 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
If we where that septic at the beginning, we will never have started
Wikipedia to begin with. Really, an encyclopedia written by anyone
without
any authority to double check before it is published? It is doomed to
fail.
Yes, in theory, but practice showed us otherwise. The question is not to
remove notability and verifiability requirements, but to change those
requirements to be more inclusive of different ways of sharing
knowledge. I
think practice can show us otherwise in that case too if we are ready to
do
that leap of faith, the same way we did at the beginning of Wikipedia
when
we opened editing to anybody.
JP
On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 11:05 AM Peter Southwood <
peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
One Jar'Edo Wens hoax is enough, and that lasted 10 years in spite of
notability and verifiability requirements, Without the verifiability
requirement it would probably still be there. Leaps of faith are
things
that I do not generally do, I am a natural sceptic and prefer evidence,
and
where possible, reproducible results. When the evidence is intangible,
the
authors must take responsibility for their work, and that means track
record and proof of identity.
This would be more easily fitted into a new project. I do not see it as
possible in Wikipedia. If the new project became recognised as a
reliable
source then Wikipedia could use it as a source, without destroying the
credibility we have.
Cheers,
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
Behalf Of Gnangarra
Sent: 10 May 2018 15:50
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
notability and verifiability are important, every culture and
language
has this issue when it comes to sharing knowledge. These culture
manage
successfully to share knowledge many of them long before the western
styles
were developed, I'd say they are robust alternatives. The issue is how
do
we bring these sources into the western system, how do we respect them,
how do we teach ourselves to understand that what we currently do is
not
the only.
There are risks in potential abuses of every system, even our current
systems have their faults and we assume good faith in the citations
from
books published but no digital. Changing the way we consider and value
alternative knowledge streams will take a leap of faith, the question
is
do
we really want to take that leap, do we really want to share the sum of
all
knowledge, do we want to address inherent bias in our current knowledge
networks or are we comfortable with just token efforts.
Maybe the solution isnt in incorporating directly into the wikipedia
but
rather the creation of new project to bring forth these alternative
knowledge streams
On 10 May 2018 at 21:47, Eduardo Testart <etest...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
I posted this a while ago, an investigation on gender bias where a
member
of Wikimedia Chile was involved, in his personal capacity though:
https://epjdatascience.springeropen.com/articles/10.
1140/epjds/s13688-016-0066-4
There are many things that can be addressed individually and as a
movement
or collective, if we believe the conclusions are valid, which I
personally
do, since they are supported with data and not on our personal
impressions.
Cheers!
El jue., may. 10, 2018 10:27, Peter Southwood <
peter.southw...@telkomsa.net>
escribió:
Notability and verifiability are important. They allow us to
produce
reasonably reliable work. Moving away from those constraints opens
the
doors to extremely unreliable material. If Wikipedia is to remain
open
to
anyone to edit, there do not appear to be any robust alternatives.
Other
projects may work around this problem, but would then probably not
be
open
for anyone to edit. Or can you suggest another way?
Cheers,
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org]
On
Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland
Sent: 10 May 2018 15:01
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
"Nothing odd, it's baked in: Wikipedia is a summary of the canon of
knowledge, the corpus of generally accepted knowledge."
But it is what we accept as part of the canon of "knowledge" as
Wikipedia
that could be improved. We have a very western approach to that
saying
that
it needs to be published in such books or journals to be notable
enough,
when different cultures use different ways to build their canon of
knowledge.
JP
User:Amqui
On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 5:53 AM FRED BAUDER <
fredb...@fairpoint.net>
wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Jane Darnell <jane...@gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Thu, 10 May 2018 04:02:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
...because of our rules regarding references. Oddly,
Wikipedia can at best only echo the systemic bias, but will never
be
able
to correct it."
Nothing odd, it's baked in: Wikipedia is a summary of the canon
of
knowledge, the corpus of generally accepted knowledge.
The knowledge industry could do better. And when it does,
Wikipedia
will
reflect that. in the meantime it is helpful if gender and other
bias
issues
are noted and accommodated. Our mission is more modest than full
correction
of all bias, but we can contribute or even lead.
Fred
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