Hi Peter, It
> Le 6 mars 2019 à 08:25, Peter Southwood <peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> a > écrit : > > Natasha, > I seldom rush to be the first to express an opinion. It may be that this > humour has deeply affected some people, but it is my considered opinion that > they have jumped to a conclusion without due reflection themselves. Accusing > a person with no known history of baiting people for their gender > identification of doing just that, when they tried to make it clear that that > was not their intention within the constraints of not over-explaining a joke, > seems like attempting to use the article for political purposes to push an > agenda for special use of terminology on Wikipedia which is not used by > reliable sources by claiming extreme outrage. Maybe I am wrong, but that is > what it looks like to me. I can imagine other alternatives too, and they are > even worse. > As far as I am aware, we are having the conversation freely, so yes, by all > means. > The "joked about party" can express what they feel about such "jokes", and > are doing so to the extent that they appear to consider it quite OK to assume > that their assumption that they are the target of the jokes is true because > they choose to take it that way, and that the word of the author is > irrelevant, and that it is perfectly acceptable to harass someone because > they chose to be offended. This may be happening with others who do not feel > personally targeted too, but I don’t know what their reasoning is. > Cheers, > Peter > > -----Original Message----- > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf > Of Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l > Sent: 05 March 2019 16:12 > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour" > > Hi Peter, > > Please take time to reflect that this humour has deeply affected some people > (and not only the persons who outed publicly taking risks), hence the > reaction. To those who do not understand how LGBTIQ people feel about jokes > on their identity and the legitimate desire that adequate language be used to > express it might just seem superfluous and look like an overreaction, but it > does echo a deep suffering which takes place after being joked about > virtually everywhere and not being able to express opinion when on the > otherside, freedom of speech is invoked to promote such jokes. Advocates of > freedom of speech do not try to silence opinions. > Just look at what happened recently in France around the Ligue du lol affair, > and maybe you will understand what is at stake here (1). > > Jokes are not bad in themselves, they become problematic when they > systematically target the same group of people (women, LGBTIQ people, > minorities ect...) , and when they are issued systematically by the same > group of people not aware of their own priviledge, and when they are > disseminated through official channels. They can pave the way to problematic > behaviors if the « joked about party » cannot in turn express freely what > they feel about these jokes. > I have a request : can we have the conversation freely? > This is in no way underevaluating the value of the Signpost and the > remarkable work done by people like you. > Maybe more articles on the subject of harassement and gender issues are > needed in the Signpost to adress this issue, to lay down the cards, and maybe > not in humour tone. > To finish I want to thank Barbara from the bottom of my heart for showing > willingness to apologize and understand (because the effect of this is > soothing and shows willingness to understand) and I thank Fae for speaking > out. > If all protagonists could now calm down and consider that the very fact the > conversation is taking place is positive, I think we would all have gained in > freedom of speech. > > Good afternoon, > > Nattes à chat > > (1) > https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/12/world/europe/la-ligue-du-lol-sexual-harassment.html > > > > > >> Le 5 mars 2019 à 10:07, Peter Southwood <peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> a >> écrit : >> >> "When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout." >> Overreacting is a tradition at Wikipedia. >> Cheers, >> Peter >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf >> Of Michel Vuijlsteke >> Sent: 03 March 2019 19:49 >> To: Wikimedia Mailing List >> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour" >> >> I don't understand in which possible world anyone thought this was a good >> idea. >> >> The MfD, that is. It, and the entire discussion in favour, reads as some >> sort of caricature of the worst SJW-type excesses. >> >> M. >> >> >> >>> On Sun, 3 Mar 2019 at 16:41, Fæ <fae...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> As the last second repost had the same format error, I am trying for a >>> final time. How embarrassing! >>> >>> **** >>> >>> I would like to apologise to SMcCandlish and Barbara (WVS), and more >>> generally to the Wikipedia community, for any possible implication >>> given in my previous email to this list, that authors of the >>> problematic Signpost "Pronouns beware" essay, might in any way be >>> thought to be transphobic. This was an important matter to word >>> precisely and accurately. I take responsibility and apologise, it was >>> stupid of me to fail to ensure that there could be no way that my >>> words might appear to be intended as an attack on the person, rather >>> than criticism of the judgement used when writing this essay, and the >>> choice to publish it on Wikipedia. >>> >>> I refrained from correcting this email previously, as it was thought >>> to be better to avoid stirring up any further drama, however this was >>> being interpreted by one of the authors as deliberately avoiding >>> making any correction.[1] I apologise for that misjudgement, and my >>> failure to understand how a delay would appear. My thanks go to >>> SMcCandlish for raising their complaint that a correction was needed. >>> >>> The rest of this email runs on the long side, if you have been >>> following the deletion discussion, there is probably nothing new here. >>> :-) >>> >>> My action in acting transparently as a whistleblower, was to criticise >>> the editorial judgement of creating an essay which made jokes about >>> pronoun usage which would, and has, been read as making a bad joke >>> that mocks genderqueer and transgender people. This problem of how the >>> article could be read, was raised by others before publication. >>> Overwhelmingly the deletion discussion created for the essay has had >>> feedback from many long term and experienced Wikipedians who were >>> alarmed and upset that the article was published without this problem >>> being acted on, and either halting publication, or ensuring a >>> resubmission so there could be no confusion that the article appeared >>> abusive or a failure to respect genderqueer and nonbinary people.[0] >>> Many deletion comments have called the article "transphobic". Nobody >>> as far as I have seen, has mistakenly called the authors transphobes. >>> There is a good faith presumption that cause is an error of judgement. >>> It has been explained several times by myself and others in related >>> Wikipedia discussions that objecting to a published joke being >>> offensive to a minority group, in no way implies or presumes that the >>> author(s) deliberately intended to cause offense to that minority >>> group.Thanks, >>> >>> Thankfully the Signpost essay has been hidden from view while the >>> deletion discussion continues, an action that resolves the immediate >>> issue, and removes any need for me to be involved. >>> >>> I have not made a complaint to the Technical Spaces Code of Conduct >>> Committee, and decided to let a thread on meta stay closed with regard >>> to use of a unpaid volunteer WMF related title that requires >>> compliance with the Code of Conduct. >>> >>> I sent a friendly confidential email to the Wikimedia Wiki Education >>> project for comment, as Barbara chose to publish the essay using the >>> unpaid volunteer account that specifically represented Wiki Education, >>> though again, this was not a formal complaint. I had one informal >>> reply back saying they were looking into it. I have not emailed anyone >>> else with regard to the authors or their actions. Explicitly, I have >>> not contacted anyone's employer nor anyone else not directly part of >>> Wikimedia projects. >>> >>> Barbara has thoughtfully stated in a personal email to me, and on her >>> Wikipedia talk page, that she is preparing a formal apology as one of >>> the coauthors. >>> >>> Thankfully SMcCandlish has agreed with the article being hidden from >>> view, and continues to debate the article deletion. They chose to >>> raised an ANI request against me for "canvassing and >>> incivility/aspersions in gender-related disputes", which was closed >>> without action toThanks,day.[3] At the time of writing this email, there >>> are >>> claims by SMcCandlish that they are "accused of being a transphobe", >>> it is unclear who is doing this.[4] >>> >>> The WMF have taken the unusual step of refusing an email promoting the >>> Signpost on the announcements list, due to "multiple reports of >>> concerns related to potentially harmful content in the February 2019 >>> edition of the Signpost". I made no formal email complaint to the WMF >>> about Signpost, or anything else. The multiple reports were from other >>> concerned people that are unknown to me. Sadly the immediate personal >>> response to the WMF by the Signpost Production Manager has been "I >>> find your rejection of my email to be an empty political gesture >>> bowing to political pressure from braying sheeple."[5] No other >>> Signpost contributor has made any other reply, either personally or on >>> behalf of Signpost. I have seen no plans or proposals to change or >>> improve the review process or policies for the Signpost. >>> >>> Thank you for those sending private messages of encouragement, support >>> and information. Should anything similar happen on Wikipedia in the >>> future, this experience has taught me to run as fast as possible in >>> the opposite direction, rather than putting my head above the parapet. >>> Becoming a figure of hatred is not worth the stress, or having to read >>> targeted mockery wrapped as "jokes", published on the project you love >>> and support. Throughout our Wikimedia projects, there remains huge >>> room for improvement in how best to ensure correct, friendly and >>> respectful treatment of minorities, especially us queers. >>> >>> Links >>> 0. >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour >>> 1. >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885937612&oldid=885936723 >>> 2. https://enThanks,. >>> wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28 >>> 3. >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885954601&oldid=885953822 >>> 4. >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour&curid=60098422&diff=885957940&oldid=885957573 >>> 5. >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28 >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Fae >>> -- >>> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae >>> Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. >> https://www.avg.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
