Hi Peter, 

It

> Le 6 mars 2019 à 08:25, Peter Southwood <peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> a 
> écrit :
> 
> Natasha,
> I seldom rush to be the first to express an opinion. It may be that this 
> humour has deeply affected some people, but it is my considered opinion that 
> they have jumped to a conclusion without due reflection themselves. Accusing 
> a person with no known history of baiting people for their gender 
> identification of doing just that, when they tried to make it clear that that 
> was not their intention within the constraints of not over-explaining a joke, 
> seems like attempting to use the article for political purposes to push an 
> agenda for special use of terminology on Wikipedia which is not used by 
> reliable sources by claiming extreme outrage. Maybe I am wrong, but that is 
> what it looks like to me. I can imagine other alternatives too, and they are 
> even worse. 
> As far as I am aware, we are having the conversation freely, so yes, by all 
> means. 
> The "joked about party" can express what they feel about such "jokes", and 
> are doing so to the extent that they appear to consider it quite OK to assume 
> that their assumption that they are the target of the jokes is true because 
> they choose to take it that way, and that the word of the author is 
> irrelevant, and that it is perfectly acceptable to harass someone because 
> they chose to be offended. This may be happening with others who do not feel 
> personally targeted too, but I don’t know what  their reasoning is.
> Cheers, 
> Peter
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf 
> Of Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l
> Sent: 05 March 2019 16:12
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"
> 
> Hi Peter, 
> 
> Please take time to reflect that this humour has deeply affected some people 
> (and not only the persons who outed publicly taking risks), hence the 
> reaction. To those who do not understand how LGBTIQ people feel about jokes 
> on their identity and the legitimate desire that adequate language be used to 
> express it might just seem superfluous and look like an overreaction, but it 
> does echo a deep suffering which takes place after being joked about 
> virtually everywhere and not being able to express opinion when on the 
> otherside, freedom of speech is invoked to promote such jokes. Advocates of 
> freedom of speech do not try to silence opinions. 
> Just look at what happened recently in France around the Ligue du lol affair, 
> and maybe you will understand what is at stake here (1). 
> 
> Jokes are not bad in themselves, they become problematic when they 
> systematically target the same group of people (women, LGBTIQ  people, 
> minorities ect...) , and when they are issued systematically by the same 
> group of people not aware of their own priviledge, and when they are 
> disseminated through official channels. They can pave the way to problematic 
> behaviors if the « joked about party » cannot in turn express freely what 
> they feel about these jokes. 
> I have a request : can we have the conversation freely? 
> This is in no way underevaluating the value of the Signpost and the 
> remarkable work done by people like you.
> Maybe more articles on the subject of harassement and gender issues are 
> needed in the Signpost to adress this issue, to lay down the cards, and maybe 
> not in humour tone.
> To finish  I want to thank Barbara  from the bottom of my heart  for showing 
> willingness to apologize and understand (because the effect of this is 
> soothing and shows willingness to understand) and I thank Fae for speaking 
> out. 
> If all protagonists could now calm down and consider that the very fact the 
> conversation is taking place is positive, I think we would all have gained in 
> freedom of speech. 
> 
> Good afternoon, 
> 
> Nattes à chat
> 
> (1) 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/12/world/europe/la-ligue-du-lol-sexual-harassment.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> Le 5 mars 2019 à 10:07, Peter Southwood <peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> a 
>> écrit :
>> 
>> "When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout."
>> Overreacting is a tradition at Wikipedia. 
>> Cheers, 
>> Peter
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf 
>> Of Michel Vuijlsteke
>> Sent: 03 March 2019 19:49
>> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Use of Wikimedia projects for anti-LGBT+ "humour"
>> 
>> I don't understand in which possible world anyone thought this was a good
>> idea.
>> 
>> The MfD, that is. It, and the entire discussion in favour, reads as some
>> sort of caricature of the worst SJW-type excesses.
>> 
>> M.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sun, 3 Mar 2019 at 16:41, Fæ <fae...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> As the last second repost had the same format error, I am trying for a
>>> final time. How embarrassing!
>>> 
>>> ****
>>> 
>>> I would like to apologise to SMcCandlish and Barbara (WVS), and more
>>> generally to the Wikipedia community, for any possible implication
>>> given in my previous email to this list, that authors of the
>>> problematic Signpost "Pronouns beware" essay, might in any way be
>>> thought to be transphobic. This was an important matter to word
>>> precisely and accurately. I take responsibility and apologise, it was
>>> stupid of me to fail to ensure that there could be no way that my
>>> words might appear to be intended as an attack on the person, rather
>>> than criticism of the judgement used when writing this essay, and the
>>> choice to publish it on Wikipedia.
>>> 
>>> I refrained from correcting this email previously, as it was thought
>>> to be better to avoid stirring up any further drama, however this was
>>> being interpreted by one of the authors as deliberately avoiding
>>> making any correction.[1] I apologise for that misjudgement, and my
>>> failure to understand how a delay would appear. My thanks go to
>>> SMcCandlish for raising their complaint that a correction was needed.
>>> 
>>> The rest of this email runs on the long side, if you have been
>>> following the deletion discussion, there is probably nothing new here.
>>> :-)
>>> 
>>> My action in acting transparently as a whistleblower, was to criticise
>>> the editorial judgement of creating an essay which made jokes about
>>> pronoun usage which would, and has, been read as making a bad joke
>>> that mocks genderqueer and transgender people. This problem of how the
>>> article could be read, was raised by others before publication.
>>> Overwhelmingly the deletion discussion created for the essay has had
>>> feedback from many long term and experienced Wikipedians who were
>>> alarmed and upset that the article was published without this problem
>>> being acted on, and either halting publication, or ensuring a
>>> resubmission so there could be no confusion that the article appeared
>>> abusive or a failure to respect genderqueer and nonbinary people.[0]
>>> Many deletion comments have called the article "transphobic". Nobody
>>> as far as I have seen, has mistakenly called the authors transphobes.
>>> There is a good faith presumption that cause is an error of judgement.
>>> It has been explained several times by myself and others in related
>>> Wikipedia discussions that objecting to a published joke being
>>> offensive to a minority group, in no way implies or presumes that the
>>> author(s) deliberately intended to cause offense to that minority
>>> group.Thanks,
>>> 
>>> Thankfully the Signpost essay has been hidden from view while the
>>> deletion discussion continues, an action that resolves the immediate
>>> issue, and removes any need for me to be involved.
>>> 
>>> I have not made a complaint to the Technical Spaces Code of Conduct
>>> Committee, and decided to let a thread on meta stay closed with regard
>>> to use of a unpaid volunteer WMF related title that requires
>>> compliance with the Code of Conduct.
>>> 
>>> I sent a friendly confidential email to the Wikimedia Wiki Education
>>> project for comment, as Barbara chose to publish the essay using the
>>> unpaid volunteer account that specifically represented Wiki Education,
>>> though again, this was not a formal complaint. I had one informal
>>> reply back saying they were looking into it. I have not emailed anyone
>>> else with regard to the authors or their actions. Explicitly, I have
>>> not contacted anyone's employer nor anyone else not directly part of
>>> Wikimedia projects.
>>> 
>>> Barbara has thoughtfully stated in a personal email to me, and on her
>>> Wikipedia talk page, that she is preparing a formal apology as one of
>>> the coauthors.
>>> 
>>> Thankfully SMcCandlish has agreed with the article being hidden from
>>> view, and continues to debate the article deletion. They chose to
>>> raised an ANI request against me for "canvassing and
>>> incivility/aspersions in gender-related disputes", which was closed
>>> without action toThanks,day.[3] At the time of writing this email, there
>>> are
>>> claims by SMcCandlish that they are "accused of being a transphobe",
>>> it is unclear who is doing this.[4]
>>> 
>>> The WMF have taken the unusual step of refusing an email promoting the
>>> Signpost on the announcements list, due to "multiple reports of
>>> concerns related to potentially harmful content in the February 2019
>>> edition of the Signpost". I made no formal email complaint to the WMF
>>> about Signpost, or anything else. The multiple reports were from other
>>> concerned people that are unknown to me. Sadly the immediate personal
>>> response to the WMF by the Signpost Production Manager has been "I
>>> find your rejection of my email to be an empty political gesture
>>> bowing to political pressure from braying sheeple."[5] No other
>>> Signpost contributor has made any other reply, either personally or on
>>> behalf of Signpost. I have seen no plans or proposals to change or
>>> improve the review process or policies for the Signpost.
>>> 
>>> Thank you for those sending private messages of encouragement, support
>>> and information. Should anything similar happen on Wikipedia in the
>>> future, this experience has taught me to run as fast as possible in
>>> the opposite direction, rather than putting my head above the parapet.
>>> Becoming a figure of hatred is not worth the stress, or having to read
>>> targeted mockery wrapped as "jokes", published on the project you love
>>> and support. Throughout our Wikimedia projects, there remains huge
>>> room for improvement in how best to ensure correct, friendly and
>>> respectful treatment of minorities, especially us queers.
>>> 
>>> Links
>>> 0.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour
>>> 1.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885937612&oldid=885936723
>>> 2. https://enThanks,.
>>> wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28
>>> 3.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&type=revision&diff=885954601&oldid=885953822
>>> 4.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour&curid=60098422&diff=885957940&oldid=885957573
>>> 5.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-02-28
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Fae
>>> --
>>> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>>> Wikimedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+
>>> 
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