Hoi,
When you are not answerable for the mails you send, I might agree. I do not
put words in your mouth, you were quite capable of doing that yourself.
Thanks,
GerardM
On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 at 22:02, Peter Southwood <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Gerard,
> My notion of community depends on context. The context of this thread was
> not defined by me, so why do you not address your question to the person
> who brought it up? (Benjamin)
> Please refrain from telling me what I accept or do not accept, I am aware
> of my own thoughts and opinions and find your attempts to define my
> opinions offensive, as you are necessarily ignorant of what I have not
> stated. It is entirely obvious that the WMF is not a democracy, I have
> never claimed that they were, or even that they should be. The WMF has had
> mixed success in its endeavours. Some things they do well. Communicating
> with English Wikipedia on some aspects of trust and safety, policy and
> software changes is a thing they have not done well. This is my opinion.
> Yours may differ. I will give your opinion the consideration it deserves
> when it is explained logically, politely, and referring to verifiable
> facts. The farcical state of some elected governments and the
> irresponsibility of the elected is extremely familiar to me, as I live in a
> state where the elected government has continuously failed to deliver on
> their promises and on the laws they make (Not the USA, by the way, other
> countries also have embarrassing elected officials). That does not relieve
> other elected bodies or persons of their responsibilities. Being appointed
> to a position also does not relieve a person of their responsibility to do
> due diligence in governing the institution they gave been appointed to
> govern. Failure to take known risks into account is negligence, wherever a
> person is given the responsibility to direct an organisation following a
> constitution which requires them to do so. Boards are usually elected and
> appointed to take the responsibility to govern with due diligence and to
> avoid where possible damaging the organisation. I have reasonable
> confidence that the board will do its job. I do not have confidence in the
> ability of some of the working groups to come up with workable solutions to
> the various problems of the various projects.
> There is a need for change, but the need is for carefully considered
> change that does not unduly damage the projects, not a mixed bag of
> measures which includes poorly considered and poorly articulated
> recommendations that have been put together by people who do not appear to
> wish to communicate with those who will be affected by their
> recommendations. Here are some friendly suggestions: Please read my words
> carefully and try to understand my points, and refrain from assigning
> motives and opinions to me if I have not claimed them for myself, or when
> they are based on the words of other people. Make sure you are addressing
> the relevant person. Ask for clarification if you need it. Do not put words
> into my mouth.
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
> Sent: 24 August 2019 20:10
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are
> here!
>
> Hoi,
> Your notion of community is what I question. It is in your refusal of
> accepting that English Wikipedia is not a safe place, in your notion that
> the WMF failed, you fail to accept that it is the WMF that is the arbiter
> of last resort. You also fail to appreciate that the Wikimedia Foundation
> is not a democracy. Only some of the board members are elected by the
> community. The notion that elected officials are beholden to the electorate
> has been spectacularly put on display in the United States so no they are
> not beholden to you nor me.
>
> "We" do not consider facts, we hide behind opinions. The result is that our
> projects could do so much better once opinions are left for what they are
> in the face of proven facts. We claim our references are important but
> references to our behaviour have been reduced to who said what, where and
> when.
>
> Maybe the recommendations of working groups are not better in your opinion
> nor mine. In the end it does not matter because there is so much that needs
> an overhaul that defensive postures are exactly the behaviour that is best
> to be disregarded. What is needed is accepting the need for change,
> consider what the recommendations are and consider them along the lines of
> how we could improve upon them.
> Thanks
> GerardM
>
> On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 at 19:20, Peter Southwood <
> [email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > Gerard,
> > It is not clear who you are addressing here, but I am going to assume it
> > is Benjamin, who made the original claim. It is a fair question, and some
> > clarification would be welcome.
> > English Wikipedia may have failed to provide a safe environment, but the
> > WMF has failed possibly even more "spectacularly", and the
> recommendations
> > of the Working Group do not appear to be likely to be any better or more
> > effective.
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[email protected]] On
> > Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
> > Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2019 6:29 PM
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are
> > here!
> >
> > Hoi,
> > May I ask what you mean with "the" community? If anything the Wikimedia
> > community exists in some 300 parts and every parts has as many distinct
> > opinions. There are essential conflicts of interest, by some there is a
> > sense of entitlement, either based on possession or based on promises
> made.
> >
> > In many ways, what Jan-Bart wrote at the time makes as much sense then as
> > it made now. The model of self governance within a project works up to a
> > point but when it is then pointed out to it where it fails to meet
> > expectations, like it does when it is tasked to provide a safe
> environment,
> > it fails spectacularly. There is plenty of evidence showing how the well
> > fortified positions the English Wikipedia community among others has
> taken,
> > fails our readers in providing the best possible quality.
> >
> > So what community and why should we bother when it is not even that great
> > as an abstraction.
> > Thanks,
> > GerardM
> >
> > On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 at 17:48, Peter Southwood <
> > [email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Benjamin,
> > > Has the board or any member of the board made any statement suggesting
> > > that the board might overrule the community in this matter?
> > > Cheers,
> > > Peter
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[email protected]] On
> > > Behalf Of Benjamin Ikuta
> > > Sent: 24 August 2019 07:12
> > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are
> > > here!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > It is disturbing that you would even consider overriding the community
> in
> > > such a massive way.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Aug 23, 2019, at 9:44 PM, James Heilman <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > The board will be discussing this of course. We do not have a group
> > > > position at this point in time.
> > > >
> > > > J
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:47 PM Jeff Hawke <[email protected]
> >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> James
> > > >>
> > > >> Thanks for that. As a member of the Board, would you clarify the
> > > Board's
> > > >> position on whether it is prepared to see the final Recommendations
> > > >> implemented irrespective of any disagreement from the community?
> > > >>
> > > >> Jeff
> > > >>
> > > >> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:05 PM James Heilman <[email protected]>
> > > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> I for one do not agree with Jan-Bart's prior position.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> James
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 4:40 AM Jeff Hawke <
> [email protected]>
> > > >>> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> Paulo,
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> You suggest that "things will not get pretty if the Wikimedia
> > > community
> > > >>>> does not approve some of the recommendations". You may recall
> that
> > > >> just
> > > >>>> five years ago, Jan-Bart de Vreede, then chair of the WMF Board,
> > > >>> expressed
> > > >>>> the opinion
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LilaTretikov_(WMF)&diff=prev&oldid=9585319
> > > >>>> over
> > > >>>> a much less dramatic change.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> All of this is going to require change, change that might not be
> > > >>>> acceptable to some of you. I hope that all of you will be a part
> of
> > > >> this
> > > >>>> next step in our evolution. But I understand that if you decide to
> > > >> take a
> > > >>>> wiki-break, that might be the way things have to be. Even so, you
> > have
> > > >> to
> > > >>>> let the Foundation do its work and allow us all to take that next
> > step
> > > >>> when
> > > >>>> needed. I can only hope that your break is temporary, and that you
> > > will
> > > >>>> return when the time is right.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> I presume this is a good summary of the WMF position today.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Jeff
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:06 AM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> > > >>>> [email protected]> wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> If I've well understood the timeline, all input from the
> Wikimedia
> > > >>>>> community ceases in mid September. Then it's all defined by the
> WGs
> > > >>> 8and
> > > >>>>> their advisors), and eventually decided upon by the BoT around
> > > >>> December.
> > > >>>>> Therefore, after 15 September or so, the Wikimedia community will
> > > >> only
> > > >>> be
> > > >>>>> dealing with those recommendations again when they are already in
> > the
> > > >>>>> process of implementation.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> It's quite easy to predict that things will not get pretty if the
> > > >>>> Wikimedia
> > > >>>>> community does not approve some of the recommendations that pass
> > all
> > > >>> the
> > > >>>>> way till implementation phase.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Paulo
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Nicole Ebber <[email protected]> escreveu no dia quinta,
> > > >>>>> 22/08/2019
> > > >>>>> à(s) 11:58:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Dear all,
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Thank you for your engagement and input. It’s been great seeing
> so
> > > >>> much
> > > >>>>>> attention on movement strategy and collaborative efforts for
> > > >> building
> > > >>>> our
> > > >>>>>> future. Here are a couple of follow up responses and
> > > >> clarifications.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> DRAFTS
> > > >>>>>> As pointed out in my previous email, the documents we recently
> > > >> shared
> > > >>>> are
> > > >>>>>> recommendation drafts. They are not final, and not complete, but
> > > >>>> working
> > > >>>>>> documents that are currently being refined by the working
> groups.
> > > >>> Some
> > > >>>>>> answers still read like stubs that are longing for further
> > > >>> development,
> > > >>>>>> others are very detailed and will become more focused over the
> > next
> > > >>> few
> > > >>>>>> weeks. We still decided to publish everything at once, to give
> > > >>>> everyone a
> > > >>>>>> full picture of the variety of topics and offer an insight into
> > > >>>> multiple
> > > >>>>>> progress levels.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> I would also like to reiterate that movement values, priorities
> > and
> > > >>>>>> community conversation processes are high on our radar. A
> > > >>>> recommendation
> > > >>>>> to
> > > >>>>>> change the existing license model, for example, will not just go
> > > >>>> through
> > > >>>>> a
> > > >>>>>> quick approval process, but lead to a deeper exploration into
> the
> > > >>>>> reasoning
> > > >>>>>> behind it: What problems are we trying to tackle, and what could
> > be
> > > >>>> ways
> > > >>>>> to
> > > >>>>>> mitigate them? Such recommendation would then rather suggest to
> > > >> look
> > > >>>> into
> > > >>>>>> different measures to ensure indigenous knowledge is included in
> > > >> the
> > > >>>>>> Wikimedia ecosystem, deploy research and further consultation,
> > > >>> instead
> > > >>>> of
> > > >>>>>> rushing to a quick fix.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> INTEGRATION
> > > >>>>>> The working groups are taking input that they gathered at
> > Wikimania
> > > >>> and
> > > >>>>> via
> > > >>>>>> different movement channels and incorporating it into the next
> > > >>>> iteration
> > > >>>>> of
> > > >>>>>> their recommendations. These documents will then serve as a
> basis
> > > >> for
> > > >>>>>> harmonization across working groups.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> The input that we are gathering comes in on different levels.
> Some
> > > >> of
> > > >>>> it
> > > >>>>>> targets structural level changes or emphasizes specific
> principles
> > > >> or
> > > >>>>>> values, while other feedback is more on the programmatic side or
> > > >>>> already
> > > >>>>>> addressing implementation. Structural input will continue to be
> > > >>>>> considered
> > > >>>>>> in forthcoming iterations of the recommendations. Programmatic
> > > >> input
> > > >>>> will
> > > >>>>>> be documented and taken forward to inform the implementation.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> TIMELINE
> > > >>>>>> We wanted to get the English drafts out as soon as possible and
> > the
> > > >>>>>> translations on a rolling basis, so that Wikimania participants
> > > >> could
> > > >>>>> read
> > > >>>>>> and prepare to engage in person. Over the next few weeks, we
> will
> > > >> do
> > > >>>>>> targeted, public outreach to online project communities in
> > multiple
> > > >>>>>> languages. We are soliciting feedback to shape the overall
> > > >> direction
> > > >>> of
> > > >>>>> the
> > > >>>>>> recommendations through mid-September. Working Groups are
> already
> > > >>>> working
> > > >>>>>> on identifying gaps and overlaps with other groups to prepare
> for
> > > >>>>>> harmonization.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> At the harmonization sprint in Tunis on 20-22 September, we will
> > > >>> bring
> > > >>>> 3
> > > >>>>>> representatives from each Working Group together to work to
> > > >> develop a
> > > >>>>> more
> > > >>>>>> coherent set of recommendations. The group will be supported by
> > > >>>>>> facilitators and external advice, as well as the core team. We
> > have
> > > >>>> also
> > > >>>>>> invited María Sefidari, Katherine Maher, Ryan Merkley, Valerie
> > > >>> D’Costa
> > > >>>>>> (Wikimedia Foundation) and Abraham Taherivand (Wikimedia
> > > >> Deutschland)
> > > >>>> to
> > > >>>>>> the sprint. They contribute expertise and experience from their
> > > >> work
> > > >>>> and
> > > >>>>>> leadership in the movement and beyond. They will be active
> > > >> listeners
> > > >>>> and
> > > >>>>>> can challenge recommendations by pointing out risks and
> > > >> consequences
> > > >>> on
> > > >>>>> the
> > > >>>>>> organizational and movement level. They also participate as the
> > > >>>>>> representatives of organizations that may be impacted by the
> > > >>>>>> recommendations. Involving them early is important so they can
> > > >>>> anticipate
> > > >>>>>> any possible changes for their staff and programs, and plan for
> > > >>>>>> implementation.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Our aim is to release recommendations in November 2019, and
> > present
> > > >>>> them
> > > >>>>> to
> > > >>>>>> the Board of Trustees for approval in December. We will need the
> > > >>> legal
> > > >>>>>> authority of the board for some of the recommendations, while
> > > >> others
> > > >>>> will
> > > >>>>>> then be further delegated to other community mechanisms and
> > > >>> structures
> > > >>>>> for
> > > >>>>>> approval or further consultation.[1] There will be additional
> > > >> public
> > > >>>>>> consultation activities around implementation that will be
> > > >> discussed
> > > >>>> and
> > > >>>>>> owned across the movement.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> WORKING GROUPS
> > > >>>>>> We have chosen the working group model to ensure that the
> process
> > > >>> that
> > > >>>>>> embarks to make significant changes to our movement structures
> is
> > > >>> owned
> > > >>>>> by
> > > >>>>>> the community. Members of the nine working group were selected
> by
> > a
> > > >>>>>> steering committee and the groups were established in July
> > 2019.[2]
> > > >>>> Group
> > > >>>>>> members come from different parts of the movement, e.g. from
> > > >>> different
> > > >>>>>> regions and languages, from individual contributors and
> organized
> > > >>>> groups,
> > > >>>>>> and with different volunteer and staff roles, incl. Wikimedia
> > > >>>> Foundation
> > > >>>>>> staff and board.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> The groups are doing an amazing job. With many of them being
> > > >>>> volunteers,
> > > >>>>> or
> > > >>>>>> doing this work on top of their regular jobs, creating the draft
> > > >>>>>> recommendations is a huge achievement. They first needed to
> form,
> > > >>> storm
> > > >>>>> and
> > > >>>>>> norm as a group and figure out how to best work together across
> > > >> time
> > > >>>>> zones,
> > > >>>>>> languages, and contexts. They then took a deep dive into the
> > > >>> substance
> > > >>>>> and
> > > >>>>>> identified the scope of their work and the specific questions to
> > > >>> tackle
> > > >>>>> for
> > > >>>>>> us as a movement to advance in our strategic direction. The
> > > >>> development
> > > >>>>> of
> > > >>>>>> recommendations has started in spring this year, and – aside
> from
> > > >>> many
> > > >>>>>> online calls, asynchronous work and scarce in-person meetings –
> > > >>>> included
> > > >>>>>> incorporating community conversations and external expertise. It
> > is
> > > >>>> only
> > > >>>>> to
> > > >>>>>> the hard work of these groups that we finally have something
> > > >> tangible
> > > >>>> in
> > > >>>>>> front of us that we can all react to and help further improve to
> > > >>> build
> > > >>>>> our
> > > >>>>>> future together.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Please join us in thanking, celebrating and supporting them,
> > rather
> > > >>>> than
> > > >>>>>> rushing to conclusions or arguing over details. Please
> contribute
> > > >> in
> > > >>>>> good
> > > >>>>>> faith, and in a constructive way.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Let me know if you have further questions.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Best wishes,
> > > >>>>>> Nicole
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> [1]
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/July_2018_-_Board_of_Trustees_participation_in_the_Movement_Strategy_Process
> > > >>>>>> [2]
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Working_Groups/Procedures
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 at 13:13, Yaroslav Blanter <
> [email protected]>
> > > >>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> And this is the core problem of the whole process (which has
> been
> > > >>>>> pointed
> > > >>>>>>> out by multiple people from the very beginning)
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Cheers
> > > >>>>>>> Yaroslav
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 12:27 PM Jeff Hawke <
> > > >>> [email protected]
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Andy
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 7:41 PM Andy Mabbett <
> > > >>>>>> [email protected]>
> > > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 09:55, Jeff Hawke <
> > > >>>> [email protected]>
> > > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> the WG then collate them and decide the final form of the
> > > >>>>>>>>>> recommendations, to be implemented by the WMF
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> This seems to be missing a rather crucial intermediate step;
> > > >>> the
> > > >>>>> one
> > > >>>>>>>>> where the recommendations are accepted, or not, by the wider
> > > >>>>>> Wikimedia
> > > >>>>>>>>> community.
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> That step is not mentioned at
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequently_asked_questions#What_steps_will_take_place_in_the_next_few_months_to_put_a_decision-making_process_in_place
> > > >>>>>>>> ?
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Jeff
> > > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > >>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > >>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > >>>>>>>> New messages to: [email protected]
> > > >>>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
> > > >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]
> > > >>>> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > >>>>>>> New messages to: [email protected]
> > > >>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
> > > >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > >>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]
> > > >>> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>> Nicole Ebber
> > > >>>>>> Adviser International Relations
> > > >>>>>> Program Manager Wikimedia 2030 Movement Strategy
> > > >>>>>> Wikimedia Deutschland e. V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963
> > Berlin
> > > >>>>>> Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0
> > > >>>>>> https://wikimedia.de
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Unsere Vision ist eine Welt, in der alle Menschen am Wissen der
> > > >>>>> Menschheit
> > > >>>>>> teilhaben, es nutzen und mehren können. Helfen Sie uns dabei!
> > > >>>>>> https://spenden.wikimedia.de
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Wikimedia Deutschland — Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien
> Wissens
> > > >> e.
> > > >>> V.
> > > >>>>>> Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts
> > > >> Berlin-Charlottenburg
> > > >>>>> unter
> > > >>>>>> der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das
> Finanzamt
> > > >>> für
> > > >>>>>> Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207.
> > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > >>>>>> New messages to: [email protected]
> > > >>>>>> Unsubscribe:
> > > >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > >>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]
> > > >> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > >>>>> New messages to: [email protected]
> > > >>>>> Unsubscribe:
> > > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > >>>>> <mailto:[email protected]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > >>>> New messages to: [email protected]
> > > >>>> Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > > ,
> > > >>>> <mailto:[email protected]
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> --
> > > >>> James Heilman
> > > >>> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > >>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > >>> New messages to: [email protected]
> > > >>> Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > >>> <mailto:[email protected]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > >> New messages to: [email protected]
> > > >> Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > ,
> > > >> <mailto:[email protected]
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > James Heilman
> > > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: [email protected]
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
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