Hi Natacha, I am not opposed to UCoC but I am afraid you have unrealistic expectations.
We do have serious behavioral problems in the big communities. One of them, for example, is that the general tone of discussions is very aggressive and prevents some categories of users, for example, women, from participating. A completely different one is a proliferation of POV pushers in all possible topics. However, UCoC will not solve these problems. It will not solve any problems of the French Wikipedia. The point is that big projects had twenty years to solve behavioral issues, and have developed an extensive system of policies and guidelines to deal with them. In some cases, policies are missing because the communities were not able to come up with a good solution, acceptable for everyone, and it is very naive to think that a small dedicated group will be able to develop something better in two months. I see that it does not even pretend doing this, which is a good thing, but even if they were thinking they know better than the communities such UCoC were impossible to enforce. Another reason sometimes is that policies already exist but are not fully enforced - and here UCoC will not help either, the projects must look themselves and figure out why the policies are not enforced. Where UCoC can potentially help are small projects without well-developed conduct policies. A few year ago, a user was blocked on the Acehnese Wikipedia for something that the admin thought is an insult to Islam (I believe posting non-offensive images of people but I muight be wrong). On the Chechen Wikipedia, a user was blocked for stating that Chechnya is part of Russia. A couple of years ago, a user was blocked on the Amcharic Wikipedia, and the admin said openly gay users are not allowed to edit because this is contrary to Ethiopian tradition. The Croatian Wikipedia is essentially governed by a clique blocking everybody who disagrees, and nobody can do anything about it. These are the showcases where UCoC may be (or even might be) instrumental, and only if one thinks very well what the instruments could be. Not on the big projects. Best Yaroslav On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 8:55 AM Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote: > Hello, > > A code of conduct id something many of us have asked the WMF to write for > many years. We are asking the WMF to take an active part in stopping > abusive behaviors in our community. > > On fr wiki, many admins say they are tired of conflicts and that they did > not enroll to deal with them. A code of conduct could help then take action > because it offers a frame. > > This is COMPLETELY different with the branding process. > > We are one of the few projects in the open source world without a code of > conduct. > > So thank you for this draft, thank you for opening up for discussions, and > I hope the language will remain respectful. > > I believe moderators should ban from this list the person who spoke about > « wmf flatulence ». > > > I dont want to read that type of language among people who are supposedly > asked to write neutral enccyclopedias. > > It puts pressure and stress on those who would like to answer on this > thread, it sets an aggressive climate. > > Please could we all feel empowered to apply our founding principles and > refuse any such language here and on meta in these discussions? > > Kind regards, > > Nattes à chat > > > Envoyé de mon iPhone > > > Le 10 sept. 2020 à 03:53, Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com> a écrit : > > > > Yair > > > > I was in the room in 2017 when the first community consultation on the > > strategy program took place. Affiliates were asked to send a person > > specifically for the strategy process, and WMF also invited some other > > community members. There was absolutely no coercion, or control over what > > topics were raised during those discussions. The program was not run by > the > > WMF and everyone was free to contribute any ideas they had, as the > program > > went on we chose which areas and topics we wanted to be the focus. Trust > > and safety, and user conduct were areas that were identified as necessary > > to the future development of the movement. This process has been open for > > ideas, comments, and suggestions. Yes the WMF has funded the process but > > every choice has been made by community members without any duress or > > reward as to where each step lead. > > > > As someone who actively runs projects for the last 10 years to bring in > new > > contributors, I have concerns about the UCoC process in giving advantages > > to those who have been around longer but that is not something that will > be > > unique to this as its already an issue in all projects where the new > person > > is the one frequently dismissed as wrong when there is a clash between > > them and someone who has been around long enough to be known. > > > > > > > >> On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 at 09:11, Yair Rand <yyairr...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> The UCoC is obviously a WMF-driven project. It was announced in June > 2019 > >> by a member of the WMF Trust and Safety team, was added to the strategy > >> process by the group of WMF appointees (or sometimes WMF > >> appointee-appointees) who made up the working group, had > >> pseudo-consultations about it started by WMF staff (with > wildly-misleading > >> reports written up afterward, again by the WMF), and the UCoC itself was > >> drafted by a mixed group of WMF staff and WMF appointees, through a > process > >> set by the WMF. > >> > >> The communities have repeatedly expressed unambiguous consensus against > >> having a WMF-imposed UCoC. The WMF has absolutely no business in setting > >> ordinary conduct policy, and they could have the ED and every board > member > >> and C-level declare the UCoC to be policy, and threaten every affiliate > >> into declaring it as policy, and the only impact would be demonstrating > how > >> far removed they are from Wikimedia. The communities are self-governing > and > >> will implement policy based on community decisions. > >> > >> That said, I disagree with Dan's calls for > nonparticipation/noncooperation > >> or for specifically withholding funds or support. If we end up in a > >> situation where the WMF tries to block, desysop, threaten, or sue > >> contributors, or to seize control over the projects, that would be the > time > >> for all editors and affiliates and donors to level-headedly level the > >> Foundation to its foundations. Until then, we should attempt to work > with > >> them, even when their behaviour leaves much to be desired. > >> > >> -- Yair Rand > >> > >> > >> > >> בתאריך יום ד׳, 9 בספט׳ 2020 ב-16:03 מאת Jackie < > >> jackie.koer...@gmail.com>: > >> > >>> Hi Dan, > >>> > >>> I hear that you are upset by the suggestion and likely implementation > of > >> a > >>> Universal Code of Conduct. I also hear that you feel like this is a > >>> WMF-driven project. I cannot change your opinion about the UCoC, but I > >> can > >>> say your feelings about this being a WMF-driven project are untrue. It > >>> doesn't matter how strongly you feel this, it's actually many groups of > >>> people working together. It was determined as a major need during > >>> discussions I had as part of the Community Health Working Group and I > am > >>> glad to see this moving forward. > >>> > >>> I am glad you feel comfortable expressing yourself and your feelings > >> about > >>> the UCoC. I also would like to say the way in which people express > >>> themselves and mask insults as "lively discussion" is a huge reason why > >> we > >>> need a UCoC. To that point, I agree with Isaac and would suggest you > >> share > >>> in a (collegiate) conversation on the Meta talk page. I just cannot > take > >>> you seriously with the language you used in your email. I, however, > would > >>> love to take your comments seriously and have you engage in a > good-faith > >>> discussion about the UCoC. > >>> > >>> Our roles in the discussion should consider not only our needs as > >>> individuals but the needs of the broader communities. To dismiss the > UCoC > >>> is failing to recognize privilege and power structures and their effect > >> on > >>> people in and outside of the Wikimedia community. > >>> > >>> Best, > >>> > >>> Jackie > >>> > >>> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 1:42 PM Isaac Olatunde < > reachout2is...@gmail.com> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hello Dan, > >>>> > >>>> You are allowed to offer an opinion but I Honestly think that's better > >>> and > >>>> more useful on the Draft talk page. > >>>> > >>>> That being said, by "effective vote or representation in the > >>> proceedings", > >>>> you probably expected a different model where different language > >>>> Wikip(m)edia community would be represented or vote on weather to have > >> a > >>>> UCoC. > >>>> > >>>> The current model isn't bad. I do think we should review the draft > and > >>> if > >>>> there are specific wording we disagree with, we can either suggest > >>>> improvement or removal altogether. I honestly think we need to help > and > >>>> support the drafting committee at this stage. > >>>> > >>>> Regards > >>>> > >>>> Isaac > >>>> > >>>> On Tue, 8 Sep 2020, 19:25 Dan Szymborski, <dszymbor...@gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I'm also perfectly free to express to the IRS that I'd really like to > >>>> get a > >>>>> $10 million check from them at tax time. The ability to offer an > >>> opinion > >>>> on > >>>>> proceedings with no effective vote or representation in the > >> proceedings > >>>> is > >>>>> about as good as a fart in the wind. I'd prefer the WMF keep its > >>>> flatulence > >>>>> to itself. > >>>>> > >>>>> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 2:17 PM Isaac Olatunde < > >>> reachout2is...@gmail.com> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> On the contrary, I do not think this is an imposition by the Board > >> or > >>>> WMF > >>>>>> as we are allowed to comment on the draft, and suggest improvement. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I have been following the process closely and I do not see anything > >>>> that > >>>>>> looks like an "imposition" > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The Universal Code of Conduct is not a substitute to the existing > >>>> policy > >>>>> or > >>>>>> guidelines but a behavioural guidelines expected of users in any > >>>>> Wikimedia > >>>>>> project. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Regards > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Isaac > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Tue, 8 Sep 2020, 16:11 Dan Szymborski, <dszymbor...@gmail.com> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> As this is being explicitly imposed by the board from above > >> without > >>>>>>> community approval, participating in any way is ethically > >> unsound. > >>>>> Doubly > >>>>>>> so without a board election preceding this as the WMF has > >>> arbitrarily > >>>>>>> denied communities the right, as manifested in the election of > >> the > >>>>>>> community seats, to voice their opinions of actions that WMF has > >>>> taken > >>>>>> over > >>>>>>> the last 18 months. A collaborative process is a collaborative > >>>> process > >>>>>> when > >>>>>>> it's actually a collaborative process, not just when it's called > >>> one. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The best use of time at this point is to organize the communities > >>> to > >>>>> use > >>>>>>> every means at its disposal to resist such an imposition. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 4:18 PM Patrick Earley < > >>> pear...@wikimedia.org > >>>>> > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hello, everyone. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> We are excited to share a draft of the Universal Code of > >> Conduct > >>>>>>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct>, > >>> which > >>>>> the > >>>>>>>> Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees called for earlier this > >>> year > >>>>>>>> < > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/May_2020_-_Board_of_Trustees_on_Healthy_Community_Culture,_Inclusivity,_and_Safe_Spaces > >>>>>>>>> , > >>>>>>>> for your review and feedback. The discussion will be open until > >>>>> October > >>>>>>> 6, > >>>>>>>> 2020. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The UCoC Drafting Committee > >>>>>>>> < > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Drafting_committee > >>>>>>>>> wants > >>>>>>>> to learn which parts of the draft would present challenges for > >>> you > >>>> or > >>>>>>> your > >>>>>>>> work. What is missing from this draft? What do you like, and > >> what > >>>>> could > >>>>>>> be > >>>>>>>> improved? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Many thanks to the Committee, and everyone who has helped with > >>>>>>> translations > >>>>>>>> so far. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Please join the conversation > >>>>>>>> < > >>>>>> > >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Draft_review > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> and share this email with others who may be interested to join, > >>>> too. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> To learn more about the UCoC project, see the Universal Code of > >>>>> Conduct > >>>>>>>> page > >>>>>>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct>, > >> and > >>>> the > >>>>>> FAQ > >>>>>>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/FAQ > >>> , > >>>> on > >>>>>>> Meta. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> [2] > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/May_2020_-_Board_of_Trustees_on_Healthy_Community_Culture,_Inclusivity,_and_Safe_Spaces > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> [3] > >>>>>>> > >>>> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Draft_review > >>>>>>>> [4] > >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/FAQ > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>> Patrick Earley > >>>>>>>> Policy Manager, Trust and Safety > >>>>>>>> Wikimedia Foundation > >>>>>>>> pear...@wikimedia.org > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > >>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > >>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > >>>>>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >>>>>>>> Unsubscribe: > >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >>>>>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > >>>> ?subject=unsubscribe> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > >>>>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >>>>>>> Unsubscribe: > >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >>>>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > >>> ?subject=unsubscribe> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > >>>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >>>>>> Unsubscribe: > >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >>>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > >> ?subject=unsubscribe> > >>>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > >>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >>>>> Unsubscribe: > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > >>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > , > >>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Jackie Koerner, Ph.D. > >>> jackiekoerner.com > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > >>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > >> > > > > > > -- > > GN. > > > > *Power of Diverse Collaboration* > > *Sharing knowledge brings people together* > > Wikimania Bangkok 2021 > > August > > 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