Sorry Erik, I missed your post in the discussion above and just saw it as I was working my way back through the stack of emails. Anyway, I hope this is on your radar.
Pine On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 9:55 PM, Pine W <[email protected]> wrote: > Sounds like there are some issues here that may need untangling. I'm > pinging Erik. He's probably aware of this but I would like to hear his POV. > Mobile is high on WMF's priority stack and it's high on my list of personal > interests. > > Pine > > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 1:46 PM, Ryan Kaldari <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> What you're saying, Trevor, makes sense, and I agree that we shouldn't >> have >> a "code purgatory". I won't presume to speak for Jon, but I imagine his >> somewhat provocative presentation of Mantle is due, at least in part, to >> frustration. About a year ago, the mobile web team was gung-ho to start >> moving parts of MobileFrontend into core. The first step in this process >> was to convert MobileFrontend into a skin, which we did. The second part >> was to move our template system into core, since most of the other parts >> depend on it and there's no MVC framework in core, especially not for >> client-side use. We put together an RfC on this,[1] and pushed it at the >> architecture summit. No consensus was reached on moving forward, and >> instead we reluctantly agreed to hold off on doing anything until Gabriel >> had a chance to implement an alternate solution for comparison. We >> recently >> tested Gabriel's implementation,[2] but are not totally satisfied with it >> or convinced that it is the best way forward (although Gabriel is still in >> the process of improving it). >> >> After having lost most of our momentum, we recently pushed to prioritize >> core infrastructure work during mobile web's planning for the upcoming >> fiscal year, and even talked about breaking off part of the mobile web >> team >> into a "skin and infrastructure team". This too was basically shut down in >> favor of continuing work on mobile features. Then after suffering both of >> these setbacks we learn that there is yet another nascent proposal for a >> new core UI skinning infrastructure and even though it doesn't have a >> single line of code yet, you have been granted 80% of your time to work on >> it (rather than working on either of other two systems that have already >> been started). While it's great that you have invited the mobile web team >> to participate in this effort, I hope you can understand how this entire >> experience has been extremely demoralizing and frustrating for the mobile >> web team. Personally, I can't blame Jon for losing patience in the process >> and (purposefully or not) causing a stink about it. >> >> That said, I hope we (the mobile web team) can put aside some of our >> feelings of being snubbed and outmaneuvered and work (yet again) towards >> reaching some sort of consensus on moving forward. >> >> 1. >> >> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/HTML_templating_library >> 2. >> >> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/HTML_templating_library/Knockoff_-_Tassembly/Mobile_spike >> >> >> Ryan Kaldari >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 12:05 PM, Trevor Parscal <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> > Indeed, this thread is a bit silly. >> > >> > If someone wants to make an extension that provides a feature, and >> someone >> > else wants to use it, there's nothing wrong with that. But why would >> such a >> > thing need proposing? >> > >> > If the point of Mantle is only to provide a way to bring templates to >> the >> > client, then sell it that way. Look at the code in Mantle, and the way >> it's >> > been pitched online and in person. It includes other things too, and has >> > been repeatedly advertised as a general place where any code that is >> > experimental can be put, while also simultaneously pushing for others to >> > depend on it. >> > >> > I have no problem with adding useful functionality to ResourceLoader, >> even >> > doing so in an extension. I have a problem with trying to develop, what >> Jon >> > himself call, a code "purgatory". >> > >> > I'm happy to talk in person as well. >> > >> > - Trevor >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 11:23 AM, Ryan Kaldari <[email protected]> >> > wrote: >> > >> > > This whole thread seems a bit silly to me. We put stuff that should >> be in >> > > core into extensions all the time (for lots of different reasons). For >> > > example: WikiEditor, VisualEditor, Echo, MobileFrontend, JsonConfig, >> etc. >> > > So why is Mantle such a bad idea? There's no consensus on implementing >> > > templating in core yet, so it seems like a pretty cool idea to have an >> > > extension that other extensions can utilize for that technology in the >> > > meantime (instead of writing separate code for the same purpose). The >> > > JsonConfig and EventLogging extensions are basically the same idea, >> > right? >> > > I think if Jon had named the extension "TemplateDooDad" (and hadn't >> > > emphasized the fact that he was avoiding putting the code into core), >> it >> > > wouldn't have raised anyone's hackles. >> > > >> > > Ryan Kaldari >> > > >> > > >> > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 10:57 AM, Jon Robson <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > > >> > > > Trevor, >> > > > That email you quote was about totally different code and a proposal >> > > > to put it into Mantle and is off topic for this discussion.\T >> > > > Trevor, please grab me in real life, so we can quell this >> > > > misunderstanding asap, I feel for whatever reason I am not >> effectively >> > > > communicating to you and possibly others and I would like to work >> out >> > > > why and avoid future misunderstandings. I had hoped to grab you >> > > > yesterday but I didn't get time because of the Flow release, hence >> my >> > > > lack of reply to that thread. >> > > > >> > > > The main problem Mantle currently solves is: >> > > > "... we both had a need to pass templates from the server to the >> > > > client via ResourceLoader. Mobile has been doing this for a year, >> and >> > > > rather than another big project like Flow reinventing the wheel, we >> > > > decided it was time to share code." >> > > > >> > > > To put it this way: >> > > > * it would be irresponsible to put code for 2 templating languages >> > > > (Hogan, Handlebars) into core >> > > > * it would be irresponsible to put code to serve templates with no >> > > > templating library whilst the RFC about templating is still >> > > > unresolved. >> > > > * it would be irresponsible for two teams to write exactly the same >> > > > code to serve templates to the client in 2 different extensions. >> > > > >> > > > Your own team member Timo was strongly against me putting this code >> in >> > > > core in current form and I agreed with him. >> > > > >> > > > "We are paid, as professional software engineers, to write code that >> > > > provides complete solutions, is stable, is clear how to use, doesn't >> > > > break anything and meets MediaWiki's coding conventions" >> > > > >> > > > This particularly offends me by the way. This is a no brainer and of >> > > > course any code Flow or the mobile team is writing will meet coding >> > > > standards and be stable. I'm not going to post bad code to Wikimedia >> > > > servers just as I'm not going to post non-generic non-standardised >> > > > code to core. >> > > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > Wikitech-l mailing list >> > > > [email protected] >> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l >> > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Wikitech-l mailing list >> > > [email protected] >> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Wikitech-l mailing list >> > [email protected] >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikitech-l mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l >> > > _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list [email protected] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
