[Winona Online Democracy] Glen,
I asked a question of Ruth 4 days ago but she has not had a chance to reply yet. How would you answer it? It's copied below this message. The three questions are not setting you up. I'd actually like to try to find a way to manuever around the land mines that groups of diverse people usually step on when they talk about complex topics. It goes back to the Community Forum that Gerry Krage and I organized over a year about "Free Speech and Supporting the Troops." Maybe I'm overly idealistic but I have this belief (or hope?) that the principals of free speech and democracy are strong enough to allow us to talk about war, even during times of war. There must be a way to talk about the effectiveness and ethics of war while still supporting the troops. I know that's easier said than done. We need to listen to how other groups of people take what each of us says. I may mean one thing but it's taken by someone else in a very different way and vice versa. Can we work around that? But first, can we reach some kind of agreement or consensus on the 3 questions listed below? Are there any additional questions you'd like to ask? Dwayne May 25, 2004 -------------- Ruth, In your last e-mail you said, "We are in this war, now let us support our troops." Is it possible to: 1. Support our troops and 2. Be concerned about the mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, grandmothers, grandfathers, cousins, etc. of Iraq and 3. Question the decisions, honesty, and effectiveness of our elected officials? Dwayne Voegeli May 21, 2004 --------------- >[Winona Online Democracy] > > >I've inserted some comments below. I've also clipped items I'm not >responding to for brevity. > > Glen Schumann >Winona, MN > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >H: 507.454.3056 W: 507.453.3567 W FAX: 507.454.1440 > >Visit my Family Home Page: http://www.hbci.com/~gschuman/home.htm >Last Update: March 12, 2000 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Behalf Of Bob Sebo > Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2004 6:13 PM > To: online democracy > Subject: [Winona] Where (Local) Angels Fear To Tread > > > As all of you know I am just a simple country boy (at least I've written >it often enough, you should know it by know), but here's my two cents worth >on the war and Winona. Or perhaps I should say, here's my perspective on >how it is playing out locally. > > GS: Does growing up on a Wisconsin dairy farm during the 50s and 60s >qualify me as a simple country boy? > > I'll preface my remarks by saying that my family is certainly in this >hook, line, and sinker. My brother is a colonel attached to the J3 in >Tampa...they're the folks running the war. My nephew (his son) is a 1LT in >South Korea whose tour ends in about fourteen weeks. Having said that, >rumor has it that they may be pulling troops out of Seoul and redeploying >them to Iraq this summer...regardless of how close you are to getting out. >This is not an abstract argument to me. > > GS: I appreciate the service of your family members. > > ---------------------------------------%<--------------------------------- >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--- > Second observation: As schools of thought on the war have crystallized >locally, and nationally, there is a certain self-righteousness to the tone >of the statements coming from, for lack of a better word, "the right." On >her radio show on KWNO on Friday, Linda Chavez essentially said that you >cannot support our troops and oppose our foreign policy at the same time. I >see this argument as jingoistic, oversimplifying matters greatly, and really >insulting the loyal opposition, those on "the left." Ruthie made a similar >statement, and I just don't think it is right. > > GS: I happen to agree with Ms Chavez. I do not understand how one can >really be supporting the troops while opposed to their misssion. > > -----------------------------------------------------------------%<------- >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >------------------- > > Fourth observation: For us to be willing to dehumanize the enemy, by >using the term animals, does put us a little too close to the fascist column >for my taste. These people are 12th century low life scum, but they are >people. I'm disappointed that my friends in this community would so easily >disavow that fact. That's why Abu Ghraib happened. We should resist such >temptation, no matter how appealing or personally satisfying it might be. >By dismissing these individuals as animals, we may also underestimate their >ability to undermine our national goals. > > GS: Is scum higher on the life scale than animal? Animals have some >worth; scum is defined as "worthless" in my American Heritage dictionary. >Maybe I'm just being stubborn and obtuse, but I don't see a real difference. > > I remember back to the morning of September 11, 2001. I was just >finishing up my morning show when the first AP stories started coming in >(amazingly it took more than 20 minutes, the bureau people must not have >believed it either). I remember how I felt when I realized they weren't >saying a small general aviation aircraft was involved in the first of the >two New York crashes, and then the Pentagon, and then Pennsylvania. When I >knew these were attacks, and feared that the dead could number in the tens >of thousands, my taste for blood was as strong as anyone else's. I remember >first hearing months later that bombs were being dropped in Afghanistan, and >I was glad to know that we were responding against those responsible for >9/11. To say, nearly three years later, that one is not a patriotic >American if one does not lock step with every word coming out of the current >administration...I say those are not the words of a true American patriot. >He or she would know that democracy, freedom of speech, and intellectual >freedom, is every bit as important during wartime as during peacetime. >Every past effort to stamp out the free exchange of ideas and debate in our >society has produced bad decisions. Our strength is our diversity, and its >ability to shape a cogent and effective public policy for this nation, >regardless of the issues involved. > > GS: The right to dissent is quintessentially American. I would never >accuse one dissenting of being un-patriotic. Dissent is different than >"giving aid and comfort to the enemy". I am not aware of anyone locally >doing that, but I have heard reports of instances on college campuses where >some were advocating for failure of our mission in Iraq. THAT is >un-patriotic and borders on treason in my opinion. > > I too remember what I was doing and where that morning. It ranks up there >with the Kennedy assination. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--------%<------------------------------------------------------------------ >------------------- > ><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> ><HTML><HEAD><TITLE></TITLE> ><META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> ><META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=GENERATOR> ><STYLE></STYLE> ></HEAD> ><BODY text=#000000 bgColor=#ffffff> ><DIV><SPAN class=840093023-24052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I've >inserted some comments below. I've also clipped items I'm not responding >to for brevity.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> ><DIV><SPAN class=840093023-24052004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff >size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> ><DIV><SPAN class=840093023-24052004> ><P><FONT size=2><SPAN class=840093023-24052004> </SPAN>Glen >Schumann<BR>Winona, MN<BR><BR>[EMAIL PROTECTED]<BR><BR>H: 507.454.3056 W: >507.453.3567 W FAX: 507.454.1440<BR><BR>Visit my Family Home Page: ></FONT><A href="http://www.hbci.com/~gschuman/home.htm"; target=_blank><FONT >size=2>http://www.hbci.com/~gschuman/home.htm</FONT></A><BR><FONT size=2>Last >Update: March 12, 2000<BR></FONT></P></SPAN></DIV> ><BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> > <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma > size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Bob > Sebo<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, May 23, 2004 6:13 PM<BR><B>To:</B> online > democracy<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Winona] Where (Local) Angels Fear To > Tread<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>As all of you know I am just a simple > country boy (at least I've written it often enough, you should know it by > know), but here's my two cents worth on the war and Winona. Or >perhaps I > should say, here's my perspective on how it is playing out >locally.<SPAN > class=840093023-24052004><FONT > color=#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN > class=840093023-24052004></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=840093023-24052004><FONT > color=#0000ff>GS: Does growing up on a Wisconsin dairy farm during the >50s and > 60s qualify me as a simple country > boy?</FONT> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>I'll preface my remarks by saying that my > family is certainly in this hook, line, and sinker. My brother is a > colonel attached to the J3 in Tampa...they're the folks running the >war. > My nephew (his son) is a 1LT in South Korea whose tour ends in about >fourteen > weeks. Having said that, rumor has it that they may be pulling troops > out of Seoul and redeploying them to Iraq this summer...regardless of how > close you are to getting out. This is not an abstract argument to > me.<SPAN class=840093023-24052004><FONT > color=#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN > class=840093023-24052004></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=840093023-24052004><FONT > color=#0000ff>GS: I appreciate the service of your family > members.</FONT> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN > >class=840093023-24052004>---------------------------------------%<------ >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-------------------------------</SPAN></FONT></DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>Second observation: As schools of > thought on the war have crystallized locally, and nationally, there is a > certain self-righteousness to the tone of the statements coming from, >for lack > of a better word, "the right." On her radio show on KWNO on Friday, > Linda Chavez essentially said that you cannot support our troops and oppose > our foreign policy at the same time. I see this argument as >jingoistic, > oversimplifying matters greatly, and really insulting the loyal opposition, > those on "the left." Ruthie made a similar statement, and I just don't > think it is right.<SPAN class=840093023-24052004><FONT > color=#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN > class=840093023-24052004></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=840093023-24052004><FONT > color=#0000ff>GS: I happen to agree with Ms >Chavez. I do > not understand how one can really be supporting the troops while >opposed > to their misssion.</FONT><FONT > color=#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN > >class=840093023-24052004>-------------------------------------------------- >---------------%<------------------------------------------------------- >-----------------------------------------------</SPAN></FONT></DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN > class=840093023-24052004></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>Fourth observation: For us to be > willing to dehumanize the enemy, by using the term animals, does put us a > little too close to the fascist column for my taste. These people > are 12th century low life scum, but they are people. I'm disappointed > that my friends in this community would so easily disavow that fact. > That's why Abu Ghraib happened. We should resist such temptation, no > matter how appealing or personally satisfying it might be. By >dismissing > these individuals as animals, we may also underestimate their ability to > undermine our national goals.<SPAN class=840093023-24052004><FONT > color=#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN > class=840093023-24052004></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=840093023-24052004><FONT > color=#0000ff>GS: Is scum higher on the life scale than animal? > Animals have some worth; scum is defined as "worthless" in my American > Heritage dictionary. Maybe I'm just being stubborn and obtuse, but I > don't see a real difference.</FONT> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>I remember back to the morning of >September > 11, 2001. I was just finishing up my morning show when the first AP > stories started coming in (amazingly it took more than 20 minutes, the > bureau people must not have believed it either). I remember how I felt > when I realized they weren't saying a small general aviation aircraft was > involved in the first of the two New York crashes, and then the >Pentagon, and > then Pennsylvania. When I knew these were attacks, and feared that the > dead could number in the tens of thousands, my taste for blood was as strong > as anyone else's. I remember first hearing months later that bombs >were > being dropped in Afghanistan, and I was glad to know that we were responding > against those responsible for 9/11. To say, nearly three years later, > that one is not a patriotic American if one does not lock >step > with every word coming out of the current administration...I say those >are not > the words of a true American patriot. He or she would know that > democracy, freedom of speech, and intellectual freedom, is every bit as > important during wartime as during peacetime. Every past effort to >stamp > out the free exchange of ideas and debate in our society has produced bad > decisions. Our strength is our diversity, and its ability to shape a > cogent and effective public policy for this nation, regardless of the issues > involved.<SPAN class=840093023-24052004><FONT > color=#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN > class=840093023-24052004></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=840093023-24052004><FONT > color=#0000ff>GS: The right to dissent > is quintessentially American. I would never accuse one > dissenting of being un-patriotic. Dissent is different than >"giving > aid and comfort to the enemy".</FONT> <FONT color=#0000ff> I am not >aware > of anyone locally doing that, but I have heard reports of instances on >college > campuses where some were advocating for failure of our mission in >Iraq. > THAT is un-patriotic and borders on treason in my > opinion.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN > class=840093023-24052004></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN > class=840093023-24052004>I too remember what I was doing and where that > morning. It ranks up there with the Kennedy > assination.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN > class=840093023-24052004></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN > >class=840093023-24052004>-------------------------------------------------- >--------------------------------%<-------------------------------------- >-----------------------------------------------</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>< >/BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> > >_______________________________________________ >This message was posted to Winona Online Democracy >All messages must be signed by the senders actual name. >No commercial solicitations are allowed on this list. >To manage your subscription or view the message archives, please visit >http://mapnp.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/winona >Any problems or suggestions can be directed to >mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >If you want help on how to contact elected officials, go to the Contact page at > http://www.winonaonlinedemocracy.org ------------ Dwayne Voegeli Winona County Commissioner, District #2 (507) 453-9012 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 359 Pleasant Hill Dr. Winona, MN 55987 ------------ _______________________________________________ This message was posted to Winona Online Democracy All messages must be signed by the senders actual name. No commercial solicitations are allowed on this list. To manage your subscription or view the message archives, please visit http://mapnp.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/winona Any problems or suggestions can be directed to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you want help on how to contact elected officials, go to the Contact page at http://www.winonaonlinedemocracy.org
