[Winona Online Democracy] > GS: I happen to agree with Ms Chavez. I do not understand how one can >really be supporting the troops while opposed to their misssion.
Can you support children but disagree with the superintendent / factory owner / other authority figure? Can you support the civil rights of men & women while denouncing their government? Of course you can. Try replacing the word "troops" with "people" and see if that simplifies the question. You can certainly support the individual men and women of this world regardless of their profession. They're doing their job as well as they can, which deserves honor and support whether they are a soldier, a farmer, or a teacher. --- Now the question becomes: If a soldier believes that what they are doing is wrong, would we support them in standing up for what they believe is right, even if they knew they would go to jail? At what point does personal responsibility come into play? Most of us will carry out instructions if we believe that the authority figure knows what they are doing. Very few would refuse, letting our personal will be replaced by someone else's. To Glen's earlier comment, their "mission" is to follow orders. We as individuals can certainly support these people in their mission to do a good job for their team, yet we may disagree with the group's objective and methods. I support my family members who serve, but I hope that they will have the courage to disobey a bad order. I realize that I would never be able to wear a general's stars, but to me being a general is just another job and the title deserves the same respect as the president of the country or the president of the PTA. Ideally, it's the person who matters, not the title. Thomas Jefferson, one of my heroes, believed and wrote that the Constitution, the laws, and the government should be emptied and created fresh every generation lest anyone stay in power so long that they could move the country without the will of the people. Otherwise we would all become sheep, following the government blindly and carrying out military and corporate actions that are against the best interest of the people. Not because we're weak per se, but because it's in our training and education to follow orders. I don't think we've gone too far down that road yet, but it's worth considering that labeling a person as a "troop" removes personal responsibility and personal liability in the public's eye -- until things get way out of hand, then we all wonder how such a nice person could do such terrible things. Clay Templeton -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Dwayne Voegeli Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 7:46 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Winona] Where (Local) Angels Fear To Tread [Winona Online Democracy] Glen, I asked a question of Ruth 4 days ago but she has not had a chance to reply yet. How would you answer it? It's copied below this message. The three questions are not setting you up. I'd actually like to try to find a way to manuever around the land mines that groups of diverse people usually step on when they talk about complex topics. It goes back to the Community Forum that Gerry Krage and I organized over a year about "Free Speech and Supporting the Troops." Maybe I'm overly idealistic but I have this belief (or hope?) that the principals of free speech and democracy are strong enough to allow us to talk about war, even during times of war. There must be a way to talk about the effectiveness and ethics of war while still supporting the troops. I know that's easier said than done. We need to listen to how other groups of people take what each of us says. I may mean one thing but it's taken by someone else in a very different way and vice versa. Can we work around that? But first, can we reach some kind of agreement or consensus on the 3 questions listed below? Are there any additional questions you'd like to ask? Dwayne May 25, 2004 -------------- Ruth, In your last e-mail you said, "We are in this war, now let us support our troops." Is it possible to: 1. Support our troops and 2. Be concerned about the mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, grandmothers, grandfathers, cousins, etc. of Iraq and 3. Question the decisions, honesty, and effectiveness of our elected officials? Dwayne Voegeli May 21, 2004 --------------- >[Winona Online Democracy] > > >I've inserted some comments below. I've also clipped items I'm not >responding to for brevity. > > Glen Schumann >Winona, MN > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >H: 507.454.3056 W: 507.453.3567 W FAX: 507.454.1440 > >Visit my Family Home Page: http://www.hbci.com/~gschuman/home.htm >Last Update: March 12, 2000 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Behalf Of Bob Sebo > Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2004 6:13 PM > To: online democracy > Subject: [Winona] Where (Local) Angels Fear To Tread > > > As all of you know I am just a simple country boy (at least I've written >it often enough, you should know it by know), but here's my two cents worth >on the war and Winona. Or perhaps I should say, here's my perspective on >how it is playing out locally. > > GS: Does growing up on a Wisconsin dairy farm during the 50s and 60s >qualify me as a simple country boy? > > I'll preface my remarks by saying that my family is certainly in this >hook, line, and sinker. My brother is a colonel attached to the J3 in >Tampa...they're the folks running the war. My nephew (his son) is a 1LT in >South Korea whose tour ends in about fourteen weeks. Having said that, >rumor has it that they may be pulling troops out of Seoul and redeploying >them to Iraq this summer...regardless of how close you are to getting out. >This is not an abstract argument to me. > > GS: I appreciate the service of your family members. > > ---------------------------------------%<-------------------------------- - >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >--- > Second observation: As schools of thought on the war have crystallized >locally, and nationally, there is a certain self-righteousness to the tone >of the statements coming from, for lack of a better word, "the right." On >her radio show on KWNO on Friday, Linda Chavez essentially said that you >cannot support our troops and oppose our foreign policy at the same time. I >see this argument as jingoistic, oversimplifying matters greatly, and really >insulting the loyal opposition, those on "the left." Ruthie made a similar >statement, and I just don't think it is right. > > GS: I happen to agree with Ms Chavez. I do not understand how one can >really be supporting the troops while opposed to their misssion. _______________________________________________ This message was posted to Winona Online Democracy All messages must be signed by the senders actual name. No commercial solicitations are allowed on this list. To manage your subscription or view the message archives, please visit http://mapnp.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/winona Any problems or suggestions can be directed to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you want help on how to contact elected officials, go to the Contact page at http://www.winonaonlinedemocracy.org
