[Winona Online Democracy]
In this brief post I will attempt to answer some of Mr. Kirschman's
concerns from his post dated 1/31.
First of all debate is good and unfortunately our country has along
history of using ad homineum attacks rather than reasoned and clear
debate. Just read about Adams and Jefferson. They were arch enemies
for years and died closed friends - on the same day - July 4th.
In your first paragraph you wonder whether the relocation of
administrative office will result in large and expensive offices for
administration. I haven't say down to look at the square foot
comparisons but believe that the type, size and the location of
offices [in the HS building] will in the immediate and long run save
tax dollars. When administration moves to the HS heating, cooling
and maintenance costs realized at Lincoln will be absorbed and
efficiencies will increase.
Also the intangibles are important too. Be it now or 10 years from
now the administration and the HS admin and staff will be in close
proximity of each other and will have the opportunity to work with
each other more closely. This is important as this district will
face more and more challenging times as enrollments may decline or
state support coninue to wane. As a result teachers and
administration will be forced to work better together.
In the next parts of your post I have to agree that using the Big O
as a bar argument is not parsimonious and may undercut the real
problem. Though the Big O analogy is clean and clear because it
helps people see the discrepancy between other educational facilities
being used. But since there are no half empty bottles of whiskey
around the analogy loses potency, immediacy or salience. So I
wished I would of used the comparisons and analogies for the building
across the street where oils [or something strange substance] seeps
through the carpet of this old oil / service body shop building now
serving some of our youngest of the ALC population.
The funding of education issue you talked about isquite involved as
you know. But to be clear - funding was cut severely, then the
state funded some of what they cut, and now call that an increase in
funding. However, their increased aid doesn't account for $2.25 a
gallon fuel, 15% insurance increases, unfunded mandates like No Child
Left Behind, and Special Ed. At my home I had to increase saving
for fuel, insurance and health care. Unfortunately our state and
nation missed this opportunity to provide funding for education and
instead insists for breaks for the rich. We are careful with
taxpayers' money carefully. The State of MN just awarded our
district, for the second year in a row, a financial fiscal
responsibility award. Congrats to Jeff Seeley and team.
Finally, Re: other costs questions you had - I am not going to duck
this and will do more research. I worked from home this week-end and
my dial-in internet - just doesn't have enough speed and capacity to
get that work done. I sat here an hour waiting last night to open a
page - simply no luck. Tomorrow I will work on this over lunch.
So, Mr. Kirschman I will get back to you on that question.
Thanks to all of you for your patience and correspondence.
Kelly P Herold.
At 1:36 PM -0600 1/31/06, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
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I certainly haven't perceived this discussion as having a tone of "why =
are we spending money on "those" kids". In fact, I'm wondering why we =
weren't addressing these student needs (if there is actually a need for =
a new building) before we were deciding on spending huge money for new =
administrative offices.
Being on the politically incorrect side of this argument, I would like =
to point out some things I question in how the ALC proposal has been =
defended and debated of late;
* The fact that the current ALC building was once a bar means what? If =
my house was once a church, does that make me holy? Apparently it has =
served 100's of students and children adequately for two decades.
* Claiming WAPS isn't actually building the building is technically =
correct but points out how desperate the advocates of this proposal are. =
Does anyone really think that this argument actually resonates with the =
public? In fact, it further undermines the credibility of those making =
it.
* Some proposed costs associated with the moves from Lincoln have been =
in the media. Proposed costs are seldom actual costs. Look at how the =
cost of renovating the High School quickly escalated. Unlike Mr. Durand, =
I believe that Mr. Herold is a man of his word and will get back to me =
(and WOD) with factual answers to my question about all actual costs. =
He doesn't strike me as the type who needs to enlist "shills" to act as =
his mouthpiece for the sake of his political ambitions.
* The "don't our kids deserve better" argument is worn out and still =
remains feckless yet insulting. It's like asking "do you still beat =
your spouse?"
* Why is it okay for one group to attack others (who they're always =
claiming don't care about kids) just because they resist worshipping at =
the community temple of public education? Don't they have the right to =
disagree and debate on how the tithes they're forced to pay are spent on =
the temple? Recent decisions by the high priests point out the need for =
more debate and a lot more prayer and meditation.
* ISD861 money troubles are always blamed on inadequate state funding. =
Both political parties have alternately held the purse strings. =
Education funding has always been a top priority at the legislature, =
about $13 BILLION just last year. Maybe the trouble is actually due to =
the fact that we're simply spending it faster than we're receiving it? =
There will never be an end to "good causes", there will always be an end =
to the amount of money we can throw at them. The success or failure of =
our district finances simply depend on how we prioritize our needs. =
This ALC spending decisions by the Board of Education is elective. It =
is not the result of "state mandates", which is usually where the blame =
is placed after the inadequate state funding argument is challenged.
* The politically correct can be offensive and condescending in their =
posts on WOD and their comrades with say nothing. If the politically =
incorrect get offensive or condescending, the PC attack them in droves.
* I often wonder who is really the author of some of the recent WOD =
posts defending the district position on the proposed ALC building. Me =
thinks they protest too much.
* How many more buildings will ISD861 build using the leasing loophole? =
What will the next great cause be and when will we hear about it? Will =
they give us more than three weeks to respond with a better plan?
Debate is good for us, like it or not...................... =
Mike Kirschmann
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Rob Brault=20
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 9:09 PM
Subject: [Winona] Fw: ALC
[Winona Online Democracy]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
I don't know any of the students or faculty at the ALC but I want my =
tax dollars to educate all the students in the district - even those who =
some would rather write off, some who have already been written off by =
people that should care about them. This whole discussion has the tone =
of why are we spending any money on "those" kids.
Other points made in this discussion seem to forget the length of time =
the discussion of moving ALC has been going on, seem to tie the costs of =
moving ALC to the closure of Lincoln building and suggest that WAPS =
should have polished it's crystal ball a bit better when asking for our =
tax dollars for the last levy. I suspect there would have been an even =
larger outcry if the district had tried to ask for an undetermined =
amount of money because 'we know the ALC will move, we just don't know =
where to yet'.
. The current efforts to relocate the ALC have been going on for at =
least a year and a half and have been covered more than once in each =
print media, regular updates at school board meeting, in editions of =
Inside Your Schools (district's newsletter to all residents).=20
. Even during Bartleson's tenure, plans were in the works to relocate =
the middle and high school level Winona Area Learning Center. =20
. Placing the program in existing district space was determined not =
workable for numerous reasons, including vocal NIMBY; not in my back =
yard, opponents to those locations.
. Space has been considered all around the community--at least 20 =
spots. Problems arose with location, zoning, high costs of remodeling =
the space etc. , proximity to hazards, etc. Also, if some of these =
business sites were used, that business would then be taken off the tax =
rolls and this has a community impact.=20
. There were attempts to develop a partnership with the City of =
Winona.=20
. On December 28 Mr. May presented his proposal to build a building =
(WAPS is not building it) for the WALC students and children. His costs =
seem to be in line with square foot costs for other locations. =20
. Any other property the ALC would have relocated to would have also =
been leased--state lease aid would be used. =20
. Housing the ALC far out of town--maybe Rollingstone or the Ridgeway =
Building--satisfies the desire to have these kids out of the general =
population (for the NIMBY's). However, it puts them far away from the =
services they regularly have appointments with (Court Services, Human =
Services, Public Health etc.) These remote sites are also not =
accessible by public transportation and also make it more difficult for =
students to come from their work to school, or from school to work.=20
. These efforts were never financially tied to the referendum or =
referenced to it as a supported expenditure of a successful referendum.
I don't know who Mr. May is but I'm grateful he stepped up to the =
table with a viable offer.=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Beth Brault
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
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This message was posted to Winona Online Democracy
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To manage your subscription or view the message archives, please visit
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I certainly haven't perceived this =
discussion as=20
having a tone of "why are we spending money on "those" kids". In =
fact, I'm=20
wondering why we weren't addressing these student needs (if there is =
actually a=20
need for a new building) <EM>before </EM> we were deciding on =
spending=20
huge money for new administrative offices.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Being on the =
politically <EM>incorrect</EM>=20
side of this argument, I would like to point out some things I question =
in how=20
the ALC proposal has been defended and debated of late;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>* The fact that the current ALC =
building was once a=20
bar means what? If my house was once a church, does that make =
me=20
holy? Apparently it has served 100's of students and children =
adequately for two decades.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>* Claiming WAPS isn't actually =
building the=20
building is technically correct but points out how desperate the =
advocates of=20
this proposal are. Does anyone really think that this =
argument=20
actually resonates with the public? In fact, it further=20
undermines the credibility of those making it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>* <STRONG><EM>Some =
</EM></STRONG>proposed costs=20
associated with the moves from Lincoln have been in the media. =
Proposed=20
costs are seldom actual costs. Look at how the cost of =
renovating the=20
High School quickly escalated. Unlike Mr. Durand, I believe that =
Mr. Herold=20
is a man of his word and will get back to me (and WOD) with factual =
answers=20
to my question about all actual costs. He doesn't strike me as the =
type=20
who needs to enlist "shills" to act as his mouthpiece for the sake of =
his=20
political ambitions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>* The "don't our kids deserve better" =
argument is=20
worn out and still remains feckless yet insulting. It's =
like=20
asking "do you still beat your spouse?"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>* Why is it okay for one =
group to attack=20
others (who they're always claiming don't care about kids) just=20
because they resist worshipping at the community temple of public=20
education? Don't they have the right to disagree and debate =
on how=20
the tithes they're forced to pay are spent on the temple? Recent =
decisions=20
by the high priests point out the need for more debate and a lot more =
prayer and=20
meditation.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>* ISD861 money troubles are always =
blamed on=20
inadequate state funding. Both political parties have alternately =
held the=20
purse strings. Education funding has always been a top priority at =
the legislature, about $13 BILLION just last year. Maybe the =
trouble=20
is actually due to the fact that we're simply spending it faster than =
we're=20
receiving it? There will <EM>never </EM>be an end to "good =
causes",=20
there will<EM> always </EM>be an end to the amount of money we can throw =
at=20
them. The success or failure of our district =
finances simply=20
depend on how we <STRONG><EM>prioritize </EM></STRONG>our=20
needs<STRONG><EM>. This ALC spending decisions by the Board =
of=20
Education is elective.</EM></STRONG> It is not the =
result=20
of "state mandates", which is usually where the blame is placed after =
the=20
inadequate state funding argument is challenged.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>* The <EM>politically correct</EM> can =
be offensive=20
and condescending in their posts on WOD and their comrades with say=20
nothing. If the <EM>politically incorrect </EM>get offensive or=20
condescending, the PC attack them in droves.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>* I often wonder who is really =
the author of=20
some of the recent WOD posts defending the district position on the =
proposed ALC=20
building. Me thinks they protest too much.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>* How many more buildings will ISD861 =
build using=20
the leasing loophole? What will the next great cause be and when =
will we=20
hear about it? Will they give us more than three weeks to respond =
with a=20
better plan?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Debate is good for us, like it or=20
not...................... =
&=
nbsp; &n=
bsp; =20
Mike Kirschmann</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A [EMAIL PROTECTED] href=3D"mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">Rob =
Brault</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
href=3D"mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 30, 2006 =
9:09=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Winona] Fw: ALC</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>[Winona Online Democracy]<BR><BR>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>I don't know any of the =
students or faculty=20
at the ALC but I want my tax dollars to educate all the students in =
the=20
district - even those who some would rather write off, some who =
have=20
already been written off by people that should care about=20
them. This whole discussion has the tone of why are =
we=20
spending any money on "those" kids.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Other points made in this discussion =
seem to=20
forget the length of time the discussion of moving ALC has been going =
on, seem=20
to tie the costs of moving ALC to the closure of Lincoln building and =
suggest=20
that WAPS should have polished it's crystal ball a bit better when =
asking for=20
our tax dollars for the last levy. I suspect there would have =
been an=20
even larger outcry if the district had tried to ask for an =
undetermined amount=20
of money because 'we know the ALC will move, we just don't know where =
to=20
yet'.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>=95 The current efforts to =
relocate the ALC=20
have been going on for at least a year and a half and have been =
covered more=20
than once in each print media, regular updates at school board =
meeting, in=20
editions of Inside Your Schools (district's newsletter to all =
residents).=20
</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>=95 Even during Bartleson's =
tenure, plans=20
were in the works to relocate the middle and high school level Winona =
Area=20
Learning Center. </FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"><BR></FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D2>=95 Placing the=20
program in existing district space was determined not workable for =
numerous=20
reasons, including vocal NIMBY; not in my back yard, opponents to =
those=20
locations.</FONT><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>=95 Space has =
been considered=20
all around the community--at least 20 spots. Problems arose with =
location,=20
zoning, high costs of remodeling the space etc. , proximity to =
hazards, etc.=20
Also, if some of these business sites were used, that business =
would=20
then be taken off the tax rolls and this has a community =
impact.</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"> <BR></FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D2>=95=20
There were attempts to develop a partnership with the City of=20
Winona.</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"> <BR></FONT><FONT =
face=3Dsans-serif=20
size=3D2>=95 On December 28 Mr. May presented his proposal to build a =
building=20
(WAPS is not building it) for the WALC students and children. =
His costs=20
seem to be in line with square foot costs for other locations.=20
</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"> <BR></FONT><FONT =
face=3Dsans-serif=20
size=3D2>=95 Any other property the ALC would have relocated to would =
have also=20
been leased--state lease aid would be used. </FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"> <BR></FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D2>=95 Housing the=20
ALC far out of town--maybe Rollingstone or the Ridgeway =
Building--satisfies=20
the desire to have these kids out of the general population (for the =
NIMBY's).=20
However, it puts them far away from the services they regularly have=20
appointments with (Court Services, Human Services, Public Health =
etc.) =20
These remote sites are also not accessible by public transportation =
and also=20
make it more difficult for students to come from their work to school, =
or from=20
school to work.</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman"> <BR></FONT><FONT=20
face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>=95 These efforts were never financially =
tied to the=20
referendum or referenced to it as a supported expenditure of a =
successful=20
referendum.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>I don't know who Mr. May is but =
I'm=20
grateful he stepped up to the table with a viable offer.</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"> </FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial><BR></FONT></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial> </DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT =
face=3DArial>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>Beth =
Brault<BR><BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED]</A></FONT></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>This message =
was=20
posted to Winona Online Democracy<BR>All messages must be signed by =
the=20
senders actual name.<BR>No commercial solicitations are allowed on =
this=20
list.<BR>To manage your subscription or view the message archives, =
please=20
visit<BR>http://mapnp.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/winona<BR>Any =
problems or=20
suggestions can be directed to <BR>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] =
<BR>If you=20
want help on how to contact elected officials, go to the Contact page=20
=
at<BR> http://www.winonaonlinedemocracy.org</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTM=
L>
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--
Kelly Herold, PhD
Associate Professor of Communication Studies
Winona State University
Winona, MN
55987
507 - 457 - 5242
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
_______________________________________________
This message was posted to Winona Online Democracy
All messages must be signed by the senders actual name.
No commercial solicitations are allowed on this list.
To manage your subscription or view the message archives, please visit
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mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
If you want help on how to contact elected officials, go to the Contact page at
http://www.winonaonlinedemocracy.org
