The decision about the EAP method must be made above and beyond just the engineering staff. Just as with other security-related challenges, risk management (and an institutions appetite for risk) must be considered. Even with the PEAP evil twin, there are a number of mitigation techniques which can help, and with those in place, does it still make financial sense to move to another EAP in an attempt to mitigate a now low probability exploit? Is their evidence of this exploit at your institution? Would an attacker hang out on your campus, where the users are mostly low value targets (students), or will an attacker hang out at the local Starbucks/Panera or sports arena, where it’s far easier to gather information from open guest networks?
Said another way, if moving to say EAP-TLS costs the institution $130,000 a year (software, hardware, and staff FTE), what’s the risk exposure over five years? Is the $650,000 investment in institution funds to mitigate the PEAP problem worth it? Does the change impact user experience for the positive or negative? Is it more/less work for user services? In my opinion, the biggest risk factor we have today is the end-user. MiTM attacks are a real possibility, but I’d argue that there is a bigger threat of users clicking on “Cats on pianos” malware links… Jeff From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> on behalf of Philippe Hanset <[email protected]> Reply-To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Date: Monday, June 20, 2016 at 6:20 PM To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] eduroam ssid David, To clarify, eduroam is not a standard, but a trust fabric to roam between research and education institutions. eduroam requires IEEE 802.1X (which is a well used standard at many institutions for WLAN and sometimes LAN security) to operate which in turn can run on multiple different EAP methods. EAP-TTLS, PEAP, EAP-TLS, EAP-PWD,… can all be used with eduroam. All these methods have their issues and schools pick them based on what suits them best for their requirements and their environment. Hope this helps, Philippe www.eduroam.us<http://www.eduroam.us> On Jun 20, 2016, at 8:59 PM, Schuette, David <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Reading everyone comments about edu-roam has me believing it is an old standard which needs to be updated for today's security needs. Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: "Curtis K. Larsen" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Date: 6/20/16 6:04 PM (GMT-07:00) To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] eduroam ssid The PEAP vulnerability is only mitigated by requiring EAP-TLS and disabling PEAP. (It may help a little to recommend the CAT tool or similar, but not much) We've recommended similar tools for 9 years - I know the take rates - they aren't great. Why? Because it is optional. All I am pointing out is that one cannot say that they have completely mitigated 100% the PEAP vulnerability while still running eduroam. I can say that for my primary SSID. Thanks, Curtis On Mon, June 20, 2016 5:19 pm, Jeremy Mooney wrote: > How would you plan to mitigate for your users at remote institutions if > they're not verifying the certificate? It seems you can only prevent at at > the IdP side of your radius infrastructure, and your clients can only trust > they're talking to that server by verifying the certificate. If they don't > verify the certificate, anyone can claim to be your server and just allow > PEAP without you ever seeing the traffic. Technically that's also the case > locally (someone else stands up an AP) and you could at most maybe see it > happened but not block it (at least without going into the legal minefield > of active rogue mitigation). > > I'd think that the best you can hope for (without solving the problem of > users falling for phishing/MitM in general) is just only allowing EAP-TLS > so any client with a working config for your institution won't use PEAP, > but that doesn't require blocking PEAP on the SP side. > > > On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 5:00 PM, Curtis K. Larsen > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > wrote: > >> It's done on the RADIUS server, that's kind of my point. You have a >> service in your environment >> that may pose risk to some and you can't control it. >> >> I can mitigate the PEAP vulnerability for our users on campus, and our >> users at remote >> institutions, but I cannot mitigate that same vulnerability for another >> institutions' users on my >> campus. >> >> -Curtis >> >> >> On Mon, June 20, 2016 3:50 pm, Chuck Enfield wrote: >> > How would you disable PEAP on the eduroam SSID? I've never noticed a >> > setting for that. >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv >> > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Curtis K. >> Larsen >> > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 5:19 PM >> > To: >> > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> >> > Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] eduroam ssid >> > >> > Yes it does work. That's the problem - PEAP is vulnerable to Evil Twin >> > attacks so we are disabling PEAP. Doing that on eduroam would break all >> > institutions that still offer it. Leaving it enabled exposes users at >> our >> > institution. >> > >> > -Curtis >> > >> > ________________________________________ >> > From: Johnson, Neil M >> > [[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>] >> > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 2:52 PM >> > To: Curtis K. Larsen >> > Cc: >> > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> >> > Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] eduroam ssid >> > >> > eduroam should work with just about any authentication method that uses >> > EAP (PEAP,TLS,TTLS) etc. >> > >> > So if your are say moving to TLS (Client certificates) it should still >> > just work. >> > >> > -Neil >> > >> > -- >> > Neil Johnson >> > Network Engineer >> > The University of Iowa >> > Phone: 319 384-0938 >> > Fax: 319 335-2951 >> > E-Mail: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> >> > >> > >> > >> >> On Jun 17, 2016, at 10:19 AM, Curtis K. Larsen >> > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> >> >> We're beginning to run into this problem as well. Luckily, eduroam is >> >> not our primary SSID so at least the critical business functions >> >> continue to work fine on a separate SSID. My guess is that we'll end up >> > turning eduroam off at those remote locations if problems get reported. >> >> >> >> In talking with the eduroam admin from the other institution they >> >> mentioned that when this occurs in Europe the solution has been to >> >> change the name of the SSID. Is this really allowed? If so, I'm >> >> sold! Then we can start using our primary SSID with eduroam >> >> credentials! This is what I always thought eduroam should have been. >> >> To me the value was always in the universal credential >> >> *NOT* the SSID name. That was always a drawback for me especially as >> >> supplicants become easier to configure. >> >> >> >> The other problem that we're going to run into soon is that we will be >> >> phasing out PEAP on our main SSID to mitigate against the evil twin >> >> vulnerability, but what do we do with eduroam? I mean I guess you >> >> could say it is the remote institution's problem, or the user's >> >> problem if they connect to an evil twin on your campus because they're >> >> not validating the server. But if the evil twin is on your campus it >> > seems you have at least some responsibility in the matter. But as it >> > stands, eduroam will leave a bit of a gaping security hole for us. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Curtis K. Larsen >> >> Senior Network Engineer >> >> University of Utah IT/CIS >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, June 17, 2016 7:35 am, Turner, Ryan H wrote: >> >>> Yes. We have a satellite school at UNC Asheville. Up until >> >>> recently, UNC Asheville was not running eduroam, and UNC Chapel Hill >> > was the only occupant of a couple of buildings on campus. >> >>> UNC Asheville adopted eduroam and wanted to move into adjoining spaces. >> > So we were going to have >> >>> the situation where UNC Chapel Hill folks might attach to the wrong >> >>> institution's eduroam and vice versa. We ended up bridging the two >> >>> networks together through a single link, and based on realm, UNC >> >>> Asheville will terminate UNC Chapel Hill folks directly to our >> >>> network (through trunked vlans). It is nice, because now anywhere on >> >>> UNC Asheville campus, UNC Chapel Hill folks have UNC Chapel Hill IP >> > space. Because it made sense, we actually turned off our access points >> > and allowed UNC Asheville to provide wireless in our areas (so we >> wouldn't >> > have competing wireless). >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Ryan Turner >> >>> Manager of Network Operations >> >>> ITS Communication Technologies >> >>> The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill >> >>> >> >>> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]><mailto:[email protected]> >> >>> +1 919 445 0113 Office >> >>> +1 919 274 7926 Mobile >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv >> >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Becker, >> >>> Jason >> >>> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 11:45 PM >> >>> To: >> >>> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> >> >>> Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] eduroam ssid >> >>> >> >>> Has anyone ran into this situation. >> >>> >> >>> We are an eduroam participating school and have multiple buildings >> >>> that are either across the road or sometimes sidewalk that another >> >>> University owns. The other school is wanting to join eduroam so my >> >>> issue is when we are both broadcasting the same ssid in possibly the >> >>> same airspace. I have a felling this is going to cause many problems >> > as clients could bounce back and forth between systems. >> >>> >> >>> If you had to deal with this I like to hear your thoughts on it. >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> Thanks, >> >>> Jason Becker >> >>> Network Systems Engineer >> >>> Washington University in St. Louis >> >>> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]><mailto:[email protected]> >> >>> 314-935-5006 >> >>> ********** Participation and subscription information for this >> >>> EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at >> >>> >> > http://www.educause.edu/groups/<<http://www.educause.edu/groups/%3C> >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook/>. >> > com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.educause.edu<http://2fwww.educause.edu/> >> %2fgroups%2f&data=01%7c01%7crhturner >> > %40email.unc.edu<http://40email.unc.edu/> >> %7ccb70500b292d4427293208d39661db4b%7c58b3d54f16c942d3af08 >> > 1fcabd095666%7c1&sdata=qGNRUEHsNMv7sMBIsc4xSekkNTdOESCI%2fPCz87RzRZY%3d>. >> >>> >> >>> ********** >> >>> Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE >> >>> Constituent Group discussion list can be found at >> > http://www.educause.edu/groups/. >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> ********** >> >> Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent >> > Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. >> > >> > >> > ********** >> > Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent >> > Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. >> > >> > ********** >> > Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent >> Group discussion list can >> > be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. >> > >> >> ********** >> Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent >> Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. >> > > > > -- > Jeremy Mooney > ITS - Bethel University > ********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
