So if I read this correctly, I guess you drive a VW bug.  (I hope that got a
big laugh after your rant)

I think the point was made in an earlier email that quality and performance
go hand in hand but don't take my word on it, This is an excellent project
for Charles to do in the next WINOG that I plan to attend.  

While pure gain is a small part of the equation, how clean the frequency is
received is another, What about Front to back ratio's? I have two Spectra
radio's collocated on the same tower on the same freq at the same height on
some 3 foot dishes.  (Ok they are 20 feet apart! But horizontal not
vertical).  But Spectra/Moto300's are super sensitive so they hear a lot
more than the standard 802.11a radio. 

You really can see dish quality with the Orthogon/moto radio's because they
give you so much information on how the signal is received over a generic
RSSI or DBM level.  Charles are you listening?  A lot of value can be taken
from this rant. 

Lastly since you are really broaching a few different subjects, if you want
to talk about value of your services and time we should start another
thread. It's disturbing that you take offense when someone makes a profit
for building a better product. At a time when ISP's should be going wireless
or deploying their own network why do you want to compete with the LEC?  

Tom, I'll buy you a beer at ISPCON - I love productive threads. 

Dustin Jurman
Rapid Systems Corporation
1211 N. Westshore Blvd
Tampa, FL 33607

-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 7:13 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3 ft Dual Pol antennas


Your point is well taken, and I agree not all complete packages are created

However, 2 points....

1) I never had a Pac Wireless dish move on me yet. So there is nothing wrong
with being cheaper and cheesier, if its good enough for the job.

2) Product is cheap to manufacturer in quantity.  man hours (labor)on the
other hand isn't, expecially mine.  No matter how much volume I do, my labor
doesn;t get cheaper, I'd argue that my labor rate goes up the more work I
have, because its in finite supply, unlike product that has an infinite

My point is, my job is to put money in my pocket, or pass the savings on to
my subscribers, not to put money in the pocket of a manufacturer that over
engineers. Its like the restaurants that attract people by givingthem these
huge platefulls of food, that rarely can ever be eaten in full, and half of
goes in the trash can. I'd rather save a dollar, than pay for waste.

We need cost effective alternatives for product. The most cost effective
vendors will sell more product.  Its the nature of the world we live in. 
There's no room for fat, in todays competitive world.

However, with that said, I am one to pay for quality, when there is in fact
additional value delivered worth paying for, apposed to the fabrocation that
quality is added based on name brand recognition.

For example, my experience with Radiowaves has been nothing but the best
from a customer service point of view, and may be worth paying more for, for
some people. However for me, their antennas have shown to under perform, and
not worth the higher cost on service alone.

I'll be buying a few Andrew's 3 ft dishes soon, but its not because of
quality, its because I found a distributor that will give me a good price,
compared to the alternatives. On a side note, Andrews does spec, about 2 db
higher in gain that competitors on the 3 ft Dual Pol antenna.


Have you confirmed wether the Andrews 3 ft dishes really deliver the 2 db
extra gain (34 db)?

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband

----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Liotta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" <>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3 ft Dual Pol antennas

> When you compare the Andrew and Gabriel mounts there is no doubt the 
> Andrew mount is more substantial, but it also appears to be over 
> engineered for a relatively small dish. We prefer the Gabriel mounts over 
> the Andrew since they are lighter and easier to work with, but not too 
> light like Pacwireless. The Andrew and Gabriel mounts also have superior 
> fine adjustment capabilities compared to Pacwireless.
> -Matt
> dustin jurman wrote:
>>You cannot forget that there are big differences in quality, it's not just
>>the dish but the mount as well.  As we utilize almost everything that you
>>list here with the exception of PAC Wireless there is a huge difference in
>>quality between Andrew and Gabriel quick fires.  While the Gabriel might 
>>the best value, it has the Chester cheese doodle mount when compared to 
>>of an Andrew.
>>Dustin Jurman
>>Rapid Systems Corporation
>>1211 N. Westshore Blvd
>>Tampa, FL 33607
>>-----Original Message-----
>>Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
>>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 12:03 PM
>>To: WISPA General List
>>Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3 ft Dual Pol antennas
>>I actually got clarification on the Pacwireless solutions yesterday.
>>2 ft feeds do not work for 3 ft dishes, different lengths.
>>The PacWireless is a dual pol feed on a 3 ft dish, but only has the gain 
>>less than a 2 ft dish.
>>The purpose of upgrading from a two foot to three foot was to increase 
>>not decrease it.
>>So PacWirelesslesses Dual Pol dish today, is a useless product. I was 
>>its in engineering now for a redesign.
>>Gabrial 2ft dual pol- 28.9 dbi   ($350) - best value to day.
>>Radiowaves or Andrews 3ft dual pol- 32 dbi ($1024) - desperate to get 3 
>>Gabriel 4 ft Dual Pol -34.5 db ($1000.)
>>Pacwireless 2ft single pol - 29 dbi ($180) Pacwireless 3 ft single pol- 32
>>dbi ($250) - Very cost effective Option, if you can live with Single Pol.
>>Pacwireless Dual Pol (3 ft)- 27 dbi. ($450) - worthless.
>>There is a clear gap in our options for 3 ft dual pol, and good value.
>>Four feet dishes are a big pain, won't fit through some hallways and most
>>roof hatches. And the windload is atrocious, when trying to mount it.
>>Three feet dishes are MUCH easier to work with, half the windloading, are
>>safe to install on existing wall mounted masts of slightly smaller 
>>(2.5") left from Teligent and simliar companies.  But yet maximizes the
>>available DB able to get from an antenna for a link.
>>I'd really like to see a 3 ft Dual pol option under $600, at some point. 
>>What really is Dish antenna anyway? More or less just a large trash can 
>>How much can it really cost? Its not that difficult. I'd like to see
>>PacWireless finish the job, and redesign that feed to get the 32 dbi that 
>>should be able to get.  Or Gabriel to fill in the hole. What I'd really 
>>to see is Maxrad make a Dual pol version of their 3 ft dish. There 3 foot
>>single pol dish was the best we have ever tested from a gain point of 
>>really sweat.  It out performed all the 4 fts from competitors. Its around
>>$450 but its only single pol now :-(
>>Tom DeReggi
>>RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>>IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "G.Villarini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>To: "'WISPA General List'" <>
>>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 10:00 AM
>>Subject: RE: [WISPA] 3 ft Dual Pol antennas
>>>Pac wireless has a 2ft dual pol, and a 3ft single pol, maybe the 2ft
>>>Feedhorn fits the 3 footer?!
>>>Gino A. Villarini,
>>>Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
>>>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 3:48 PM
>>>To: WISPA General List
>>>Subject: [WISPA] 3 ft Dual Pol antennas
>>>The street price I have found on 3 ft Dual pol 5.2-58Ghz parabolic 
>>>have been around ....
>>>$1045 for Andrews, and $1025 for Radiowaves.
>>>Any vendors on list in a possition to do better than that? If so, contact

>>>off list.
>>>I find it odd, that there is such a large gap between 2 feet and 3 feet.
>>>2 feet Dual pol gabriels are runing around $350.  It would be nice if
>>>someone came up with something half way in between for 3 ft dual pol.
>>>Tom DeReggi
>>>RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>>>IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>>WISPA Wireless List:
>>>WISPA Wireless List:
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