Price is always a factor, but we would gladly pay a premium for VL with the
sorely needed HARDWARE improvements:

(1)  Dual Polarity via software
(2)  Dual Band 5.3GHz and 5.8GHz

These are time tested proven valuable HARDWARE features that VL is lacking.
With these features added to VL there would not be a comparable product on
the market other than "home-brew's" like StarOS & MikroTik.

Without these HARDWARE improvements the VL product is too susceptible to
noise and therefore not a viable solution for committed rate business
offerings.

Best,


Brad




-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brad Larson
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 9:31 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

Gino, I have to admit Alvarion has some work to do for the smaller wisp's
out there. Patrick will have his hands full on this one. But for wisps
buying 100 packs on a bi or monthly plan the pricing below just doesn't seem
like such a deal breaker anymore when you add up the feature sets. For a few
more months on an ROI model you can buy Alvarion.

The whole point of this thread has been the fact that many (including Scriv)
have found out "Trango still wins, because Trango is less expensive or
Canopy for that matter"..... may not exactly be the case. The ongoing costs
of truck rolls, tech support issues, and shorter coverage modeling can kill
an ROI model faster than the cost of cpe. 

Add in voip coverage modeling and the dynamics change once again. I have
seen several advanced studies of building data/voip wireless networks where
BreezeAccess VL used half the tower/base station sites (therefore less
leases and operational expenses), gave twice the throughput per cell site,
and can handle more than 10X's the amount of voip traffic. Throw in the
addition of maintaining twice the amount of gear and once again we come out
ahead. This was really driven home on a few backhauling for mesh projects
with drive testing of different technologies and the findings REALLY blew me
away. No kidding folks the differences are like night and day and you'll be
hearing about some of these networks this year.

I first saw the differences several years ago where a project out for bid
was installing 2,500 cpe's in a seven square mile area with trees and
rolling hills. With a $125 premium on cpe the total network costs with
operational expenses was less expensive than a Canopy solution and we gave
100% coverage. Alvarion CPE installation was eave mount on 1 square mile
centers vs high rooftop with more towers needed (again saving the service
provider money). Brad

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 6:44 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

Trango Atlas CPE with dish  $250?
Canopy with dish $275

Canopy Advantage Cluster:
6 Ap's @ $1500 each = $9k (you can start your pop with a fcc certified omni
unit for $2.7k and evolve to a full sector later)
CMM Micro for Power and Sync = $1.5k *optional
BAM - Prizm = $2k *optional

The CMM Micro is optional component for GPS Sync, you can achieve sync among
the cluster with 10 ft of cat 5 and 6 rj11 connectors

BAM - Prizm is a NMS for Management but is NOT a required component, you can
manage all your settings from the web interface on each unit including
bandwidth and such.  I would only recommend the Prizm NMS for big WISP's
(200+ units )

About the Third Party:

There are a couple on 3rd party improvements for canopy, almost all were
created on a cost savings stand point, Example:

Motorola reflector dish for 10 mile + links $100
Beehive Wireless reflector dish for 10 mile links $49.95 (fcc certified)

Motorola CMM GPS Sync System $1.5k
PacketFLux GPS Sync $300

Any other questions ?

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 4:53 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs

So what is the onesy-twosy price of a Trango Atlas with an extended
range antenna? What is the price for a Canopy Advantage CPE with
extended range? I have plenty of data I've found, but there seems to be
some wide discrepancy here among you folks.

How about total cost for a Canopy cluster with the BAM, GPS synch, and
other little extra things you need for it to be complete?

Also, I've heard a number of you talk about availability of third party
improvements like it is a benefit of the Canopy system. Seriously, isn't
that more a reflection of the glaring gaps in Canopy that have led smart
WISP entrepreneurs to capitalize?

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 1:13 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs

Trango is no where near $400 for Atlas Foxes.  Trango's Atlas Fox's
distance 
without dish is just about the same as the standard Canopy CPE (same DBI

antenna).
Remember that Trango lists retail on their site to protest the WISP.
Low 
volume WISP special pricing is granted to any WISP.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anthony Will" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs


> Your numbers are a bit off on the canopy and when i looked on the
trango 
> site it looks more in the range of $400 per unit at 30 pack pricing
for 
> trango's.  I believe your getting that price but at what qualities?
> I have a couple hundred in the air and I have Midwest Wireless the 5th

> largest WISP in the country playing in my back yard using Alvarions
junk 
> BA2 system all over the place.  And I also have a local ILEC,
Stonebridge 
> and the remains of Xtratyme all over the rest of my coverage area.  My

> PtmP system is all 900mhz and 2.4 ghz using omni's and I dont have any

> issues with interference.  The longest customer link I have on 900mhz
is 
> 18.5 miles and the longest 2.4 link is 12 miles.  I use omni's so that
I 
> dont completely destroy the airwaves for others that are playing in
the 
> same sand box.
> Canopy pricing:
> AP = $898  (Advantage $1554) Single pricing
> CPE = $267 (Advantage $402 ) 25pack pricing  Add $40 a unit for 15
mile 
> range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified)
> CPE = $216 (Advantage $324) 100 pack pricing Add $25 a unit for 15
mile 
> range (stinger or beehive dish all FCC certified)
>
> Anthony Will
> Broadband Corp.
>
>
> Travis Johnson wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I changed the subject line to reflect more the direction of this 
>> discussion (Trango vs. Canopy vs. Alvarion)... ;)
>>
>> This is just off the top of my head, and I would love to see more
data on 
>> any of these radios:
>>
>> Trango 5830AP - $1,079 retail
>> Dual polarity
>> 10Mbps (auto up/down ratio)
>> Easy management (CLI and web)
>> $149 CPE ($199 up to 10 miles)
>>
>> Canopy 5.7 AP - $970 (Advantage $1,974)
>> C/I advantage
>> Fixed up/down ratio
>> $490 CPE ($737 advantage)
>>
>> Alvarion VL AP - $4,500 (rough retail)
>> 36Mbps and 40,000pps
>> $1,000 CPE
>>
>> For whatever it's worth, we have over 2,500 CPE in the air and over
2,000 
>> are Trango (900mhz, 2.4ghz, 5.8ghz). The Trango product has worked
very 
>> well for us, and we are located on some mountaintop repeater
locations 
>> that literally have over 100 antennas (paging, HAM, WISPs, etc.)
within 
>> 100 yards of each other.
>>
>> Our biggest problem is frequency availability at all (regardless of
radio 
>> choice)... we have a 2.4ghz AP at a repeater station that is "full".
We 
>> attempted to install a second sector today and ran a site survey at
this 
>> location.... across the entire 2.4ghz band, the "average" signals
ranged 
>> from -25 to -55 at the best. :(
>>
>> Travis
>> Microserv
>>
>> Jon Langeler wrote:
>>
>>> Tom, I have nothing to gain or lose by telling you what we've not
only 
>>> extensivley tested but also experienced over 6 years. We started
using 
>>> canopy since it began shipping and at least 100 trango SU between 3 
>>> different towers since beta. I just hate to see fellow wisp protest
that 
>>> there isn't a good product and struggle when their actually is a
pretty 
>>> darn good one...and on top of that has an upgrade path in it's
vision, 
>>> it keeps getting better.
>>>
>>> ARQ does not affect C/I like FEC does for example. When you say ARQ
is 
>>> fixing any resiliance problems that may be true. But you'll also
suffer 
>>> from increased latency and less throughput during those
retransmissions. 
>>> Not good if you want to support VOIP and keep customers happy.
Having a 
>>> low C/I means the system will be stable more often and maintain a
lower 
>>> retrans. Trango's ARQ is not even an option in the 5800 model which
is 
>>> what you and I probably have a decent percentage of in our Trango 
>>> networks. Having a low C/I requirement affects other things like 
>>> increases the range of a product. I'm laying out facts, you can
convince 
>>> yourself of whatever you want...
>>>
>>> Jon Langeler
>>> Michwave Tech.
>>>
>>> Tom DeReggi wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nice try, but I've found that comment to be not at all true. I have

>>>> often chosen to avoid canopy user's channels, but because I am a
good 
>>>> WISP neighbor, not because I had to.  Why fight if you can
cooperate. 
>>>> On a SPEC sheet Canopy does boast the lowest C/I.  But Trango's 
>>>> specified C/I was reported before considering ARQ. And Trango has 
>>>> always underspec'd their spec sheets.  C/I is not nearly as
relevant as 
>>>> SNR resilience anyway. With Arq, we've easilly ran links as low as
4 db 
>>>> above the average noise floor, reliably.  There is VERY little 
>>>> difference between the Trango and Canopy C/I in real world usage.
The 
>>>> Trango just adds more polarities as more options to work around it,

>>>> when needed.  One of the reasons we like Trango is its resilience
to 
>>>> noise, that gives us the abilty to fight it out and stand our
ground. 
>>>> The Foxes w/ DISH, have excellent ARQ and resilience to Noise,
within 
>>>> their range and LOS.
>>>>
>>>> When we start to have trouble with Trango, is when we start to push
the 
>>>> limits of the technology.  Its a LOS technology that we attempt
NLOS 
>>>> with. My arguement is also not that we can't be the last man
standing. 
>>>> Its that when the battle happens the customer sees it, and the
customer 
>>>> does not tolerate it.  IF a Canopy and Trango went to war, one
might 
>>>> survive a little better than the other, but ultimately both
customers 
>>>> would feel the interference the majority of the time.
>>>>
>>>> Tom DeReggi
>>>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>>>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>>
>>>
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