----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Koskenmaki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marlon K. Schafer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Koskenmaki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
Sigh. No we don't. We have as long as we need.
So the deadline is no more? I read it. There will be no exemptions and
there will be extensions. I read the rules, published by the FCC. So,
did they lie, or has there been an update nobody's been told about?
No changes. I'm saying that you don't have to follow a standard to be
compliant!
Nope. I'll have to hire Butch to help me out. Probably Mike too. But
those two things won't cost all that much. It'll just be some programing
on
devices I already own. Not much worse than what I do when I need some
router or server work done now.
You are making a mountain out of a molehill.
Nope.
I honestly don't understand why you want to pile all of this stress upon
yourself. Those of us that are EMBEDDED in the problem aren't as worried
as
you are. If it were really as bad as you're making this out to be we, of
all people, should be ready to put a bullet in our heads.
That's because you have money and credit and don't really care about doing
the right thing, vis a vis federal mandates.
roflmao. Oh boy, do you have me pegged wrong!
I happen to think that CALEA is a PERFECTLY reasonable request. And I
happen to think it's got pretty good safeguards in place. After all, they
have to go through me to get to my customers. *I'm* the only one in a
possition to be able to snoop on my customers via my network. And I know
*I'm* not gonna do that.
Instead, I'm more at ease than I was before WISPA started it's efforts.
I'd be a lot more at ease if WISPA was going to stand up for the industry.
Mark, do you not believe that that horse isn't already dead? There's
nothing left to stand for.
And honestly, CALEA is about as unreasonable as requiring that people all
drive on the right hand side of the road.
>
>
>>
>> You don't need a TTP.
>
> Only if you're so well educated in networking that you can use the VERY
> geeky tools out there to rip the data and headers apart and put it all
> back
> together in the form they demand it be provided in... with perfect
> accuracy.
Nope. There are free tools out there to help and people that don't
charge
more than OPEC to help you out.
But you can't point to a single one of them, and you have no idea how to
make my network compliant. Not a clue. This is why I find this "it's no
big deal' so amazingly frustrating.
OK, clue me in on how YOUR network is going to be so impossible to make
compliant. We have some very smart people on the CALEA list, we also have
the ear of the FBI. I'll bet we can find a way that you can afford and make
your network compliant.
Or don't you want to fix this problem?
I know a gal that is always sick. She won't got to the doctor so that she
can get better. She prefers to be sick. That's the way she gets attention.
Staying sick. She NEEDS to be sick. I don't think you are like that
though.?.?.?
>
>>
>> What you DO have to do is collect specific data. How you do so is up
to
>> you.
>
> Of course. Since most of us can't do that, we HAVE to have third
> party
> something, be it software or hardware or services.
Nope. That'll be the easiest but it's not a requirement.
Marlon, either come out and state you think the requirements are just
loose
guidelines, or start admitting we're all clueless.
Neither one. The requirements are pretty specific. But HOW you get to that
point has been left up to you. They just want the data. The way you get it
to them really is pretty loose. I know you don't think that, but it's true.
I ALMOST disbanded the CALEA committee. There, for the first time, I've
said it. We need to do this though. Not because no one else can, but
because no one else HAS.
But, heaven forbid, you might actually have to ask someone for some help
:-)
Sure. Send over 10 grand. That might do the job
See, there ya go. Where did you get that number? Oh yeah, from a mailing
list that was talking about companies profiteering via our ignorance. It's
not $10k it's $100k! You must have missed that memo. grin
Mark, ASK Bearhill, Imagestream, Mike E etc. See if they'll give you a
quote for your network. Then tell the rest of us so we can all either start
sweating more or relax a bit. thanks
\
>
>>
>> You do have to do it without tipping off the suspect.
>>
>> You do have to be able to verify it's authenticity at a later date.
>
> This means you better be an expert at what you're doing. I have a
decent
> understanding of what's asked for, but absolutely NO practical
experience,
> and not even any theoretical education on how its done.
Nope. It just means you have to keep something called a HASH file.
Whatever that is.
The hash is nothing more than a key file to assure a file is unchanged.
It has nothing to do with the things I mentioned above.
It's the hardest part of the process. At least as far as I can tell so far.
>
>>
>> You do have to do as much as you can to help LEA. If you do not
>> follow
> *a*
>> standard, you've got to try to do anything that LEA asks of you. If
you
>> follow a standard then you only have to do what is required by the
> standard.
>
> In other words, if you don't follow a "standard" then you're totally
> screwed, unless you have one of those brilliant geniuses on staff who
can
> do
> anything.
Well, certainly following a standard is going to make things cheaper and
easier on us. But hey, that's part of why people should support WISPA.
We're putting forth the effort to be able to develop a standard aimed
right
at our industry. Cool huh!?!?!?!?!
Not really. It wont' help me any.
>
>>
>> CALEA is reasonable just like emissions on power plants is reasonable.
>> Mark, when you were a mechanic you had to dispose of old oil,
>> solvents,
>> brake dust etc. in specific ways that were more expensive than just
> dumping
>> it in the parking lot or down the drain. The costs are sometimes
>
> Sure. We BURNED IT. Got useful heat from it.
And put lots of nice heavy metals in the air. Nice. grin
Huh?
When you burn waste oil, unless it's been well filtered it runs all those
bits of engine up the chimney. If you filtered it, you spent money to do
it.
You burned your antifreeze? Greasy rags? Solvent? Riiiiight.
You did not ask about antifreeze or greasy rags. Our rags came from a
laundry service. We didn't have any antifreeze to deal with.
In a garage you didn't ever have old or left over antifreeze? What did you
put in the engines?
>
>> transferred to the end user because it's REASONABLE for the business
>> operator (or home owner or whatever) to take some responsibility for
> making
>> this a better country. No shame in that.
>
> NOT AT ALL. It is NOT "reasonable" to expect the vast majority of the
> operators to be able to do ANY of this, from the 24/7/365 phone
answering
> to
> the deep technical knowledge, to the redesign of networks to the
> incredibly
> expensive TTP's. Trust me, Marlon, those TTP's are out to screw you
as
> hard as they can. Competition? There WILL NOT BE ANY. If you have
to
> sign an NDA to get a price, this is worse than the telephone company's
> competition- which does not exist.
You don't have to be available 24/7/356. Didn't you read the FAQ?
Didn't
you file your forms? You just have to tell them who to call, and if
there's
no place to call 24/7 you have to tell them when they CAN likely reach
you.
Ok, so you think all the rules are just looseguidelines? Or they've been
changed to "preferred" status?
If not, then... they apply.
No. But there's nothing in the rules that says that someone has to be
sitting at a phone 24/7.
You'd really feel much better if you were involved in these processes rather
than always looking in through the dirty windows. We've been over these
things with the lawyers and the FBI. You aren't the only little guy in the
world. Others have thought of this stuff too.
>> By the time we (wispa) get done with CALEA we'll have a low/no cost
>> option
>> for the average company. Some of you will likely have to redesign
>> your
>
> Marlon, THERE IS NO AVERAGE COMPANY! That's the whole problem in a
> nutshell. The AVERAGE is going to be very small, since the vast
> majority
> of networks (by number) are little bitty things with 1 to 20 people
> informally sharing something.
Grin. Again Mark, you are manufacturing a boogyman out of a shadow.
Average is AVERAGE. We all have routers, we all have servers, we all
have
customers etc. That's average. Whether you have Cisco, Imagestream, MT
or
like I used to do, run FreeBSD routers, won't make much difference.
I have none of those. Nor have I any servers.
You have NO routers?
I guess you could be using a Linksys or some such device. I have a couple
of sites like that. Yeah, we came up with a solution for those too. No
need to panic.
Having said that, if you're gonna be a commercial operator, I'd suggest that
a device as important to your network as your main router should be
something other than a consumer grade device.
Also, if you have a device that's a commercial product but not a consumer
based product, what did the factory tell you they are doing for CALEA
compliance?
>
>> networks a bit. That won't be all bad as you'll also have more
>> ability
>> to
>> understand what's happening on your network and to stop things like
>> broadcast storms etc.
>
> I built my network right to begin with. I have no issues whatsoever
with
> broadcast storms or otherwise. I only have to deal with things like
> virus
> and malware infected clients.
Same thing. And guess what, the same choke points you use to either find
or
shut them down, are the ones that you need for CALEA. Cool eh?
Doesn't exist. Sorry. There isn't a single router on my network. Not
a
one. And it's not bridged, either. It's 100% RF from my provider to the
client. 100%. No ethernet, no linux or freebsd boxes, no routers.
Ahhhh, ok. That helps then.
There are a couple of things that'll have to happen here.
First, if all of your ap's etc. are blocking client to client communications
they'll just tap into your upstream and get the info that they need.
If not, there's a mechanism in place for the LEA to direct intercept the RF
from your ap's. You'll have to tell them which ones to go after, you might
have to tell them where the customer lives etc.
See, we've thought of a LOT of possible situations! Don't be so fast to
panic.
Worst case, you have to drop a tap onto the network. There are ones in the
works that I believe will be available on an as needed basis.
If you don't have a server of any kind, then yeah, you'll have to pony up
for a box. I believe that an old pIII from someone's yard sale should fit
the bill for as much work as it'll have to do.
>> You guys really do have to stop panicking! You're scaring the
>> stuffing
> out
>> of too many people. This isn't a bad law and it's doesn't have to be
>> horribly expensive.
>
> You still do not get it. IT IS WRONG for them to transfer law
enforcement
> duties to us, for their convenience. Dangit Marlon, it's just as if
the
> cops demanded the gas stations GIVE them all the gas their cars need,
and
> that the restaurants feed them for free and mechanics fix the cars for
> free,
> ISP's give them internet for free, telcos give them phones for free,
blah,
> blah, blah.
Mark, do you lock your door? Take the key out of your pickup at night?
Did
you ever put up a fence?
No.
Now you're just being silly. Arguing for the sake of arguing.
I'm telling it how it is.
>
> And darnit, I want to scare the stuffing out of EVERYONE so they'll
> stop
> being passive fools and STAND UP FOR THEMSELVES, instead of being wiped
> out
> like lemmings.
Who's being passive? Passive is sitting in a corner hoping that the roof
isn't falling in.
WISPA's being passive. In fact, it's being downright hostile to small
operators.
Mark, honestly, you're barking up the wrong tree here. Most people here
don't have a problem with stuff like CALEA. We have a problem with
spectrum
auctions vs. unlicensed. We have a problem with the current
certifications
rules as they're applied to us.
Those other problems... are nothing compared to CALEA.
You want to do something Mark? Write up some letters that we can sigh
onto.
Give us something to support. A general feeling of uneasyness isn't
something that most of us have time or patience for.
I see.
>
>>
>> MOST of us will likely have hybrid plans in place. Some of the work
>> we'll
>> do ourselves with our routers, servers etc. Some of the work we'll
> contract
>> out to people like Bearhill.
>
> And who can afford a TTP? Maybe you can. I don't even collect a
> paycheck. Where the hell do you think that money will come from?
> Gads.
> Have you completely forgotten what it was like to start up? Just
hanging
> on by your teeth, when you had to buy stuff in 1's and 2's and 5's
> because
> that's ALL THERE WAS in the bank and all there was going to be? You
> never
> had to ask people for 10 days or 30 days now and then on a bill? You
> think
> money just grows on trees and we're all swimming in the falling leaves?
I know exactly what it's like. Things aren't a panic every other day
anymore. But I still can't gut a $10,000 check and not wonder how high
it'll bounce.
Mark, what does it cost to use a TTP for an intercept? Have you checked
with our nice new vendor member? Bearhill. Have you shot Tim a note and
asked what the WISPA member pricing is? Do you have real DATA? Or do
you
just have emotions running wild?
it doesn't matter. I can't use a TTP unless I spend thousands of dollars
to
redesign my network.
Of course, you knew that, right? That's why you're arguing with me about
these things?
No Mark. I know that that's probably NOT the case. I suggest that you
touch base with a couple of the guys from the CALEA list that are more
technically knowledgeable than I am. If you say pretty please Mike E. may
even be willing to call you on HIS dime and go over your network config and
your options with you. He's probably the most technically capable guy in
the country right now. He knows what the law says, he knows what the FCC
says and he knows, first hand, what the FBI says. He also knows how, and
has done, the intercepts work. We're not *sure* that his intercept would be
accepted by the FBI. But he followed the mechanisms that we were told would
work so I think that once the testing has been done we'll find out that it
was just fine. Anyway, if there's something you'd like to know about what
YOUR options are (other than ignoring the issue) he'd be a great guy to go
to for advice.
malron
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