All,

I really don't think Travis is trying to insult anyone, but simply stating
the facts.  

Everyone here that has scaled to any level understands the complexities of a
network and the business are compounded as it grows.

Nothing against Marlon, but his argument of comparing multiple upstream
providers in the same breath as servicing a client on another's wireless
network is pretty ridiculous.


Best,


Brad




-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ty Carter <Lightwave Communications>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 8:54 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] WISP Peering

Travis:

I think you are way out of line here... Just because your network has
"x" number of clients does not mean that other entities that have less
than you are not as capable to run a "large network".

I will tell you; here and now, I come from a background of having
thousands of users on my network and the little guys are just as
important, if not more important to talk to because of the reason they
are willing to talk the issue through and not shove SLA's.

People that take your attitude and continually shove SLA's in a
providers face often, at least in my case, take a back seat because what
we as a service provider had a window of time to fix for them what could
easily be fixed immediately; but because the little guy was willing to
call and discuss the issue and was willing to work with me, this put me
as a service provider in a better position to isolate the problem and
bring it to a resolution.  So what if my SLA window was missed by a few
minutes; a little credit on the account for the inconvience is all they
(Mr. SLA) were looking for anyway.

So please don't insult the smaller provider with that type of attitude
that you are or companies of size are more capable of running a larger
network.  The principals are all the same in this type of arrangement
just the scale is larger.

BTW...I'm not in any way invalidating the value of an SLA... as a mater
a fact I very much advocate having them; but a little reality check is
from time to time appropriate.

Ty Carter

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 9:28 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering

Marlon,

When you hit 3,000 subs give me a call. I'd love to chat with you then. 
Until then, you really don't have a clue what it takes to run a large 
network.

Travis
Microserv

Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
> Oh brother.  Now you're just being obstinate Travis.
>
> I honestly thought you were smart enough to substitute the appropriate

> level technician for "some guys on cell phone".
>
> What you just said is that most (all????) of your peers, including 
> your OWN techs, aren't as smart or as capable of running their own 
> networks as the boys from Level3.
>
> Guess which part of my dialup network is usually the culprit when 
> something goes down?  Not my "some guy on a cell phone" gear.  It's 
> usually L3!  2 or 3 to one over the last couple of years.
> marlon
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Travis Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 9:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering
>
>
>> I'm calling Qwest, AT&T or Level3. Places that have senior level BGP 
>> techs on staff 24x7. With a full SLA in place for outages. Not "some 
>> guys cell phone".
>>
>> Travis
>> Microserv
>>
>> Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
>>> Really?  um, exactly WHO do you call when your upstream goes down?
>>>
>>> As ours did with a major fiber cut a couple of weeks ago?
>>>
>>> We're ALREADY, ALWAYS dependant on others.
>>>
>>> Teamwork!
>>> marlon
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Travis Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 7:11 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering
>>>
>>>
>>>> Except in Marlon's case that user will NEVER be on your own 
>>>> network. Roaming is the exception not the norm with cell companies.
>>>>
>>>> Personally I think a better solution (if you absolutely don't want 
>>>> to just put up your own towers) is to just refer the customer to 
>>>> the other provider and hope they do the same in the future. 
>>>> Honestly, in Marlon's model, you aren't any different than just 
>>>> reselling DSL or Cable service. You don't have control of the 
>>>> network and you don't have control of the user's radio and/or 
>>>> router. And calling the other WISP's cell phone when a customer is 
>>>> down does NOT scale... especially to the levels Marlon is hoping to

>>>> be at one day.
>>>>
>>>> Travis
>>>> Microserv
>>>>
>>>> Mike Hammett wrote:
>>>>> Roaming is the exact same thing as Marlon does, which is what 
>>>>> we're talking about.  You collect the revenues from the user, but 
>>>>> the user is on someone else's equipment.  You pay the other 
>>>>> network for the use of it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----
>>>>> Mike Hammett
>>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>>>>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeromie Reeves" 
>>>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 1:22 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Roaming is not the same as sending the Client Account to the 
>>>>>> other company.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/29/07, Mike Hammett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>>>> It's called roaming.  It happens with everyone but Nextel.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>> Mike Hammett
>>>>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>>>>>>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Travis Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 11:38 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > Marlon,
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Your comment that I was "short sighted" because I don't turn
>>>>>>> potential
>>>>>>> > customers over to my competition really hit a nerve. Sure we
have
>>>>>>> made
>>>>>>> > some mistakes along the way, but being called short sighted
>>>>>>> because I
>>>>>>> > don't share networks and customers with competition is
asinine.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > You talk about the cell companies and the values they get when
>>>>>>> they > sell,
>>>>>>> > etc. but I can tell you that the cell companies aren't turning
>
>>>>>>> customers
>>>>>>> > over to each other people they may have poor coverage in an
>>>>>>> area. :)
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Travis
>>>>>>> > Microserv
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
>>>>>>> >> Travis, I think you've misunderstood me.
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> I'm not saying you don't have a good company.  Clearly you 
>>>>>>> do.  I
>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>> >> think you're a bright guy.
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> There are likely two reasons for the size difference in out
>>>>>>> companies.
>>>>>>> >> The biggest would be market size.  My whole COUNTY has 10,000
>>>>>>> people >> in
>>>>>>> >> it. Probably less than that by now.  The next county over
>>>>>>> probably has
>>>>>>> >> less than 50,000.  I have DSL, cable, FTTH (basically GIVEN
away
>>>>>>> by a
>>>>>>> >> PUD), and several other wisps as competition on this very
rural
>>>>>>> area.
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> I started my business as a copier sales and service company
in
>>>>>>> '95 >> with
>>>>>>> >> no inventory, no customers, a few tools an $3000 in the bank.
>>>>>>> It's >> fair
>>>>>>> >> to say that I didn't exactly have an easy time of it when
>>>>>>> starting >> out.
>>>>>>> >> I started the ISP in '97, not cause I thought it a good 
>>>>>>> business,
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> >> because no one else would do it here.  In '98 I started the
>>>>>>> homebrew >> DSL
>>>>>>> >> thing, and in '99 I started the wireless.
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> In 2001 when we switched from mostly office equipment work to

>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>> >> internet, we had a TON of debt.  An ex service manager had
spent
>>>>>>> a >> year
>>>>>>> >> setting up his own company and when he left me I lost
50%(!!!)
>>>>>>> of my
>>>>>>> >> revenue in 1 month. I'd just moved into a brand new big
building
>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>> >> Had more space and a LOT more of a lease payment than I
needed
>>>>>>> due to >> the
>>>>>>> >> reduced business.
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> Two...  We've grown much slower than some, but I'm very much
a
>>>>>>> man of >> my
>>>>>>> >> word.  I've been careful NOT to put myself in a position of
>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>> >> bankruptsy etc.  We've been late sometimes but other than the
>>>>>>> lease on
>>>>>>> >> that building, I've never walked away from a single bill.
Even
>>>>>>> when >> many
>>>>>>> >> I know have filed bankruptsy in far easier situations.  Maybe
>>>>>>> that >> makes
>>>>>>> >> me a fool, but I'm a fool you know you can do honest business
>>>>>>> with.
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> 3000 subs sounds great, till you think about companies with
>>>>>>> 30,000 or
>>>>>>> >> 300,000 subs.  THAT's where *I* want to be.  Actually, I want

>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> >> $10,000,000 cash payment for my company.  grin.  Look again,
at
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> >> original OWNERS of all of those cell phone companies that
used
>>>>>>> to >> exist.
>>>>>>> >> Or the ones that had the cable companies etc.  Why were those
>>>>>>> sales so
>>>>>>> >> valuable?  I believe because of cooperation and
standardization.
>>>>>>> Make >> it
>>>>>>> >> as cheap and easy to take over your operations as it can be.
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> BTW, 1% per year in growth?  Plus a 10% drop in costs?
That's
>>>>>>> nice. >> Our
>>>>>>> >> gross sales have increased by 15 to 16% per year for the last
>>>>>>> three
>>>>>>> >> years. We're still not advertising either.  And this year, so
>>>>>>> far, >> we're
>>>>>>> >> running 96% ahead of last years growth.  I may be in a very
>>>>>>> small >> market,
>>>>>>> >> but I'm a damned good operator!
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> laters,
>>>>>>> >> marlon
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Travis Johnson" 
>>>>>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>>>> >> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
>>>>>>> >> Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 9:19 PM
>>>>>>> >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>> Well, I seem to be holding my own ground pretty well... and
I
>>>>>>> DON'T >>> turn
>>>>>>> >>> customers over to my competition... over 65 towers in 
>>>>>>> operation,
>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>> >>> 3,000 wireless subs, hundreds of DSL subs, almost 50 fiber
>>>>>>> subs >>> (banks,
>>>>>>> >>> hospitals, insurance, etc.)... and NO outside investors, 
>>>>>>> stock >>> holders,
>>>>>>> >>> or any long-term debt whatsoever. :)
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> (OT: Our annual gross revenue has been within 1% of the 
>>>>>>> previous
>>>>>>> year
>>>>>>> >>> for the past 4 years. However, I have managed to decrease 
>>>>>>> our >>> expenses
>>>>>>> >>> by 10% every year. While this doesn't seem like a lot,
realize
>>>>>>> we are >>> a
>>>>>>> >>> multi-million dollar company. There is EASY money to be made
by
>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>> >>> cutting expenses. Things like shopping around for better CC
>>>>>>> rates,
>>>>>>> >>> better insurance rates, cheaper bandwidth, etc.)
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> Also, if you leased your equipment, you could put the new
tower
>>>>>>> up >>> for
>>>>>>> >>> less than $200 per month for EVERYTHING. ;)
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> <rant>
>>>>>>> >>> Call it what you will Marlon, but I believe you started your
>>>>>>> wireless
>>>>>>> >>> operation around 1997 (going off your website). In 1997 we
>>>>>>> started >>> our
>>>>>>> >>> wireless service as well. Today we have over 3,000 connected
>>>>>>> wireless
>>>>>>> >>> subs and are growing at over 100 per month. We have been
>>>>>>> profitable
>>>>>>> >>> since our first year in business. This will be _another_
>>>>>>> record >>> breaking
>>>>>>> >>> year for us. We have a backbone uptime of 99.99% over the
last
>>>>>>> 2 >>> years
>>>>>>> >>> (including scheduled maintenance). Our wireless subs see a
>>>>>>> 99.9% >>> uptime
>>>>>>> >>> (including maintenance, interferance issues, blown AP's, 
>>>>>>> etc). We
>>>>>>> >>> deliver over 150Mbps of internet traffic during business
hours
>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>> >>> three diverse providers (DS3 via Qwest fiber, OC3 via
seperate
>>>>>>> Qwest
>>>>>>> >>> fiber, Level3 via fastethernet via seperate fiber via
seperate
>>>>>>> NOC). >>> We
>>>>>>> >>> provide service to 8 entire school districts (out of a
possible
>>>>>>> 10 in
>>>>>>> >>> our entire 25,000 square mile coverage area).
>>>>>>> >>> </rant>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> So, if I'm short sighted and you are not, why is my company
10x
>>>>>>> the >>> size
>>>>>>> >>> and making 10x the profit when both of us started at the
same
>>>>>>> time?
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> Travis
>>>>>>> >>> Microserv
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Travis Johnson"
>>>>>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>>>> >>>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
>>>>>>> >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 8:16 PM
>>>>>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>> Why wouldn't you just put up your own AP's and service the
>>>>>>> same >>>>> area
>>>>>>> >>>>> rather than give that customer away to the competition?
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> Spectrum congestion.
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> Cashflow
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> Speed.
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> Expanded coverage, very quickly, for no money.
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>> I would spend $5k and put up my own tower before I turn a 
>>>>>>> >>>>> "potential"
>>>>>>> >>>>> customer away to the competition. I've done it many times 
>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> >>>>> years and it has always paid off. Once one person is
>>>>>>> connected, >>>>> they
>>>>>>> >>>>> tell their neighbors about it. Pretty soon an AP that was
put
>>>>>>> up >>>>> for a
>>>>>>> >>>>> single customer has 10 or 20 customers on it.
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> Um, the competitors ALREADY have networks in place!!!!!
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>> Doesn't seem to make business sense to me. Plus when they 
>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>> tech
>>>>>>> >>>>> support, how do you troubleshoot the competitors AP's? How
do
>>>>>>> you >>>>> do
>>>>>>> >>>>> RF link tests and packet loss tests at 10:00PM when the
>>>>>>> customer is >>>>> on
>>>>>>> >>>>> the phone?
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> I call the competitor on his cell phone.  Just like he does
>>>>>>> with me.
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> Your attidude, while pretty typical, is very short sighted.
>>>>>>> The >>>> more
>>>>>>> >>>> we work together to keep the airways clean and maximize the
>>>>>>> >>>> investments, the better all of our networks run and the
faster
>>>>>>> we >>>> can
>>>>>>> >>>> grow.
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> It's that silly ol' "Together we stand" thing.
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> I was watching a group of kids play Red Rover the other 
>>>>>>> day.  I
>>>>>>> had >>>> to
>>>>>>> >>>> wonder how that game would turn out if the kids all tried
to
>>>>>>> stand
>>>>>>> >>>> there and hold their OWN ground instead of working as a
team.
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>> Travis
>>>>>>> >>>>> Microserv
>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>> Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:
>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Rogato"
>>>>>>> >>>>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>>>> >>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
>>>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 6:42 PM
>>>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] WISP Peering
>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Two of my competitors just sat down for lunch and
worked
>>>>>>> out a
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> network sharing agreement.  It's a handshake deal at
this
>>>>>>> point
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> though.
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Basically we carved up a hilltop laying out coverage
zones
>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> each
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> of us, and we set a price for using each other's ap's.
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Marlon
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hey I think thats a good thing you've done there Marlon,
>>>>>>> getting
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> along and even doing business with your competitors.
>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>> Yeah.  It's something that the three of us have already
been
>>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>> >>>>>> for a couple of years.  We sell on each other's ap's at
the
>>>>>>> same
>>>>>>> >>>>>> price. The only catch is that each of us has to live
under
>>>>>>> the bw,
>>>>>>> >>>>>> and bit cap rules of the other guys network vs. our own.

>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> >>>>>> seems perfectly fair to me.
>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>> We also handle all tech support for the cusotmer.  The
>>>>>>> customer
>>>>>>> >>>>>> should NEVER contact the other isp.  We have however, 
>>>>>>> shown up
>>>>>>> >>>>>> together at problematic customers and worked jointly to
fix
>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>> >>>>>> issues.
>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> But where do you think the line would be drawn in 
>>>>>>> respect to
>>>>>>> anti
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> competitive practices?
>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>> I'm not sure.  We've not had that come up yet.
>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>> Did you have a specific situation in mind?
>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>
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>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>> --
>>>>>>> >>>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>>>>> >>>>>
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>>>>>>> >>>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>>>>> >>>>>
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>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>> --
>>>>>>> >>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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>>>>>>> >>>
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>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> > --
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>>>>>>> >
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>>>>>>> >
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>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- 
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>
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