At 06:11 PM 9/12/2007, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:
From the conversations I've had with people trying to use, or just
around, mesh gear, it doesn't usually work very well once the
network starts to come alive. The old hub and spoke method works best.
But the entire Internet is a Mesh of sorts. Remember back in the
90's how the "internet" was designed to withstand a nuclear attack?
(using lots of hub and spoke and routing for redundancy) My old
friend, lets cut through the "image" of mesh. What "mesh" is in my
opinion is the elimination of tall vertical realestate (expensive)
and the adoption of low vertical realestate (free) such as lightpoles
and rooftops. Mesh means routing rather than bridging. Instead of
shooting high for big supercells, mesh is a series of microcells or
picocells down low (cheap). Instead of dumping money into towers and
tower climbers (sorry Bob my friend) mesh is made of equipment in a
non-special environment.
Now you might think that mesh means use of omni antennas... Not
so. maybe, maybe not. To me mesh means communication between
multiple nodes (places) that are connected to each other in a web
(like the Internet) Strix is on th right track. But like so many
manufacturers, they are better at shipping gear than designing
business plans for others to invest in (like MobilePro).
But I do not believe in throwing out the baby with the
bathwater. Strix had something (before they laid off half their
staff this month). They chose folks like MOBL to cater to rather
than you or me. I believe there is a market for 900 rural mesh
"sub-muni networks". Am I wrong?
Allen
Allen
Some of the new "mesh" gear uses different channels for broadcast
vs. backhaul. But that's not really mesh anymore, it's hub and
spoke stuffed into a single box.
I'm told that if you insist on running mesh, at least make sure that
it never goes more than 2 or 3 layers deep.
Personally, in your area, I'd run 900 to mini pops. In the
population centers I'd run small micro cells of wifi. Good speeds,
cheap installs, lots of flexibility etc.
It's good to see ya back. This biz is like a good drug isn't
it. Once you are hooked, you can never get very far away.
grin
Marlon
(509) 982-2181
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage) Consulting services
42846865 (icq) WISP Operator since 1999!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam
----- Original Message ----- From: "Allen Marsalis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <wireless@wispa.org>
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 9:16 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks
I was a WISP in the late 90s and early 00s. Some of you may know
me. It's good to see many familiar faces still here. In recent
years, I have pursued new interests but I keep thinking back on my
experiences as a WISP. I had a lot of good times back then. I'm
thinking about creeping back into the WISP business.
After I sold in 2004, I followed a new trend in wireless in the
press called "muni wireless" promoted by manufacturers such as
Strix and Tropos. This concept has taken some major blows in the
press this month:
<http://wifinetnews.com/archives/007869.html>http://wifinetnews.com/archives/007869.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20521155/
<http://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?newsid=41788&id=e9381817-0593-417a-8639-c4c53e2a2a10&view=news>http://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?ne...2a10&view=news
http://www.unstrung.com/document.asp...ng_sitedefault
<http://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/as-earthlink-el.html>http://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/...thlink-el.html
http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/6120
This hits close to home because the company who bought my WISP
(ShreveNet) boasted being the largest WISP with the largest muni
WIFI network in the nation in Tempe AZ (NeoReach aka Kite aka
MobilePro) which sold these properties recently to Gobility. (Big Yawn)..
<http://www.bbwexchange.com/wireless_isp/>http://www.bbwexchange.com/wireless_isp/
I'm certainly am not posting this thread to defend or even discuss
the somewhat failed muni wireless concept. Some say it was a
failure because of the model rather than technology, caused by
giving away free service to the anchor tenant (the city) and so
forth. Whatever... I couldn't care less about the past or
Earthlink or Google, or MobilePro or huge muni wifi networks.
However I am fascinated by the mesh technology in general,
especially after witnessing the old Nokia "collapsible" bridged
mesh networks of the 90s. LOL, a lot has changed since then. I
often wonder how Dave Peterson and Ultramesh/locustworld turned
out. Once upon a time, he sold product to a WISP near me in Vivian
LA to build the first mesh network in the US. He ended up with some
heavy debt. Also I knew of a WISP in Leesville LA using Wave
Wireless (Speedcom) mesh gear with pretty good technical results,
that is, for a single radio system. I'm thinking more along the
lines of multiple radio systems.
I am brainstorming a new WISP model and I am seeking feedback and
advice. The concept goes something like this. The muni network
model touted in the press had many flaws as I see it. Coming into
an urban market after DSL and Cable has to be a steep uphill climb.
Yet in 2007 there are still rural areas with no high speed solution
in sight, particularly in the wooded Southeast where the old
wireless models don't always work. I posted the following
statistics to the wireless boards nearly a decade ago as the
results of my first 2.4GHz network.
In my area (Shreveport LA) 65 out of 100 business surveys came back
positive (35 negative) for LOS. This was made possible by
multistory buildings and large parking lots (lack of trees) Yet for
residential service, only 5 came back positive while 95 came back
negative. Clearly there is a tree issue in many residential parts
of the country. This is the market that has few if any options as
many keep hoping for DSL and cablemodem. Chainsaw jokes grow old
fast around here.
Traditionally the tools for Foliar NLOS have been (a) the use of
low frequency spectrum to penetrate through the offending object,
and (b) route around the offending object by hopping around it, (c)
increase the power to try and punch through the offending
objects. Add to these maybe OFDM to use multipath interference to
our advantage but I see that as an Urban solution (reflections off
buildings) more than a foliar solution (reflections off trees) The
700mw SR9 combined with a cheap SBCs and appropriate TCP routing
protocols appears to go a long way to make new things possible.
Please imagine a muni wireless mesh network that utilizes 900MHz
cards instead of 5.8 and 2.4 cards. Instead of nodes being 1000
feet apart atop light poles, they are now spread 1 or 2 miles
apart. Instead of it taking 15 or 20 nodes to cover one square
mile, perhaps one node could cover 1 to 4 square miles. Could this
be a solution for wooded areas with low to moderate population
densities? In other words, do you know anyone who has ever built a
mesh network using SR9s and SBCs with multiple radios to achieve
redundancy and ubiquitous coverage for small towns in the
Southeast? And using no towers by the way, LOL? As I see it, the
SR9 has 4 non-overlapping channels at 5MHz each. Thats all I need. (I think)
No hub and spoke POPs off towers, please. Been there done that. I
don't think I could take that anymore. I'm not a climber and don't
wish to hire any climbers unless it is for aggregate backhaul PtP
which is fine. This post has nothing to do with PtP shots. But any
thoughts or feedback on 900MHz meshing is appreciated. I do see a
few problems with this concept, however I am at the stage where I
think some feedback might be helpful. I'm hoping some of you
followed the muni wireless trend and gear from Strix, Tropos,
Belair, etc. Not all their ideas were wrong or bad.
One last question or two if I may. Is there only one manufacturer
of 900MHz mini-pci cards? (Ubiquiti SR9) Also, do you think it is
it too late in 2007 to start a WISP? ;) Last, would 700MHz system
eventually creep in over a few years and eat my lunch?
Thank you all and as always, good luck to all WISPs!
Best Regards,
Allen Marsalis
am @ bandwise dot com
P.S. After all these years, I still cringe when lightning strikes
and I think of you guys all the time. :) It is certainly good to
see the WISP industry moving along and so many familiar names still
in the business. I wish you all continued success!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th
2007 at ISPCON **
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **
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**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **
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