We have not ran into that yet. But thanks for letting us know. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Shoemaker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents > Should have read "have you been affected"... > > > Patrick Shoemaker > President, Vector Data Systems LLC > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > office: (301) 358-1690 x36 > mobile: (410) 991-5791 > http://www.vectordatasystems.com > > > Patrick Shoemaker wrote: >> Tom, on a semi-related note, have affected by the VLAN bug on these >> radios? The radio will not respond to any traffic originating outside if >> its own subnet if VLAN support is enabled. That means no monitoring by a >> NMS if it's not on the same subnet as the radio. >> >> Trango confirmed the bug back in February but has been unable / >> unwilling to fix it so far... >> >> >> Patrick Shoemaker >> President, Vector Data Systems LLC >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> office: (301) 358-1690 x36 >> mobile: (410) 991-5791 >> http://www.vectordatasystems.com >> >> >> Tom DeReggi wrote: >>> The T45 is probably my favorite ptp radio today, but I'm severally >>> limited >>> without support for 10mhz channels. >>> I usually run 20Mhz channels, but the safety blanket to be able to drop >>> to >>> 10Mhz to get around interference is priceless, when it is needed. Thats >>> never known until after the gear is deployed. >>> >>> I agree, just add supprot for 10Mhz channels, and Its all good for me. >>> >>> Tom DeReggi >>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Gino Villarini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 12:00 PM >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents >>> >>> >>>> Thay just need to add a couple of features to the t45... >>>> >>>> Better ethernet configuration options >>>> >>>> 5 10 40 channels support >>>> >>>> gino >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Tom DeReggi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>> Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 3:13 AM >>>> To: WISPA General List <[email protected]> >>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents >>>> >>>>> Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? >>>> Kick ASX PTP systems. Both Tri-Band Atlases, and Licensed Links. The >>>> have >>>> the potential to stay a price leader in Quality PtP. >>>> >>>> As for the PTMP.... >>>> To this day, I have never been able to get over the need to do scans on >>>> the >>>> fly from APs, to determine best channel to try. >>>> The Atlas still gives us that, and makes it a long term contendor >>>> against >>>> all the other options. >>>> >>>> I think Trango realizes they can't miss the PTP licensed market, (its >>>> to >>>> important) and that they need to stay focused on it. >>>> >>>> What I don't understand is why they can't just write some quick >>>> firmware >>>> mods, and turn the Atlast PTP Ext into an Atlas PTMP AP? >>>> I sure hope they don't give up on the MM5, even if it can't give us >>>> everything we want. >>>> >>>> Tom DeReggi >>>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >>>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Travis Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> >>>> Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:04 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> You are correct... my mistake. >>>>> >>>>> However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and >>>>> MM9 >>>>> (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. >>>>> Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? >>>>> Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. >>>>> :( >>>>> >>>>> Travis >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Charles Wu wrote: >>>>>> Travis, >>>>>> >>>>>> The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not >>>>>> 802.11a >>>>>> systems >>>>>> >>>>>> The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is >>>>>> my >>>>>> understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been >>>>>> put >>>>>> on hold / discontinued >>>>>> >>>>>> -Charles >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------- >>>>>> WiNOG Wireless Roadshows >>>>>> Coming to a City Near You >>>>>> http://www.winog.com >>>>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of Travis Johnson >>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM >>>>>> To: WISPA General List >>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents >>>>>> >>>>>> What about Trango? >>>>>> >>>>>> Charles Wu wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Mini-PCI: >>>>>> >>>>>> Ubiquiti >>>>>> >>>>>> Zcomax >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Vendor Solutions: >>>>>> >>>>>> Tranzeo >>>>>> >>>>>> Alvarion >>>>>> >>>>>> Vecima/WaveRider >>>>>> >>>>>> Wu-Wu Special* >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -Charles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> >>>>>> From: "Charles Wu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>> >>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" >>>>>> <[email protected]><mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM >>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 >>>>>> cents >>>>>> >>>>>> (as there seems to be a resurgence of "puff" in this space) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so >>>>>> feel >>>>>> >>>>>> free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively >>>>>> deliver >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the >>>>>> same >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> BSU. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out >>>>>> there >>>>>> >>>>>> that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics >>>>>> as >>>>>> >>>>>> to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the >>>>>> uncertainties >>>>>> >>>>>> of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection >>>>>> perspective, >>>>>> >>>>>> not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes >>>>>> >>>>>> don't do much in the presence of noise >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems >>>>>> when >>>>>> >>>>>> you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers >>>>>> 3-4x >>>>>> >>>>>> the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work >>>>>> in >>>>>> >>>>>> the crowded 900 MHz band. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The "concept" of interoperability is one of the most "oversold" >>>>>> features >>>>>> >>>>>> of WiMAX which needs to be explained... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Fictitious Scenario: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order >>>>>> to >>>>>> >>>>>> enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC >>>>>> features >>>>>> >>>>>> (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are >>>>>> >>>>>> customized to each user...blah blah blah >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS >>>>>> and >>>>>> a >>>>>> >>>>>> few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the >>>>>> time, >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand >>>>>> UGS >>>>>> >>>>>> from me right now and (b) the concept of "WiMAX interoperability" >>>>>> story >>>>>> >>>>>> gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / >>>>>> >>>>>> upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've >>>>>> >>>>>> deployed. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business >>>>>> is >>>>>> >>>>>> doing good...so good in fact that 2 customers want to upgrade to a >>>>>> >>>>>> "premium" service that requires features not currently supported on >>>>>> Brand >>>>>> >>>>>> A AP. Luckily, I have a "WiMAX" system so I go upgrade Brand A AP >>>>>> with >>>>>> >>>>>> Brand X. Common sense would lead me to believe that Brand X would >>>>>> support >>>>>> >>>>>> all of my CPE's features, plus supporting the enhanced feature of UGS >>>>>> that >>>>>> >>>>>> I need >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry, isn't going to work >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> As things turn out, the only "interoperability" testing done between >>>>>> Brand >>>>>> >>>>>> A CPEs and Brand X APs were done at the Best Effort feature set >>>>>> (basic >>>>>> >>>>>> Ethernet connectivity)...additionally, Rf interoperability was done >>>>>> at a >>>>>> >>>>>> 3.5 MHz channel size, and I've been running Brand A at 10 MHz to >>>>>> maximize >>>>>> >>>>>> my throughput (oh, and Brand X only supports 3.5 MHz, 5 MHz & 7 MHz >>>>>> >>>>>> channel sizes)...so to get this interoperability, I lose all of my >>>>>> rTP / >>>>>> >>>>>> VoIP prioritization for my entire network, or I have to go out and >>>>>> replace >>>>>> >>>>>> my 20 Brand A CPEs that are running VoIP with Brand X CPEs >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Oops >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> What's the moral of the story? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Ultimately, unless you're willing to run your network at the lowest >>>>>> common >>>>>> >>>>>> denominator, you're basically buying into a proprietary system. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 3. Better RF performance ( even with siso systems ) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Better RF performance as compared to what? And in what vein? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I can easily "slant" the argument the other way by bringing up an >>>>>> example >>>>>> >>>>>> where a proprietary system outperforms WiMAX >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Noise Immunity: Are you saying that WiMAX has better noise immunity >>>>>> that >>>>>> >>>>>> Canopy (OFDM vs. FSK...yeah right) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> NLOS: Are you saying that WiMAX can do better NLoS than 900 MHz? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Urban Reflective NLOS: Are you saying that WiMAX can do better Urban >>>>>> NLoS >>>>>> >>>>>> than a MIMO-based 1024-FFT OFDM system? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 4. NLOS performance ( OFDM+OFDMA = More difficult shots obtain link ) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> See above >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 5. Better QOS support, and service flows ( UGS, NRTPS, ETC can be ) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> There can be an argument made that the WiMAX MAC is much more >>>>>> >>>>>> sophisticated than the Canopy / Alvarion VL / Trango / Tranzeo / >>>>>> CSMA-CA >>>>>> >>>>>> systems on the market today...that said, don't forget that there is a >>>>>> >>>>>> $$$COST$$$ for this sophistication...namely, you effectively lock >>>>>> yourself >>>>>> >>>>>> into a "proprietary" implementation of your WiMAX system >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 6. Greater scalablity ( Single sector can support hundreds of >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> subscribers, our platform supports 30,000 pps ) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> WiMAX in it's true tested and interoperable state maxes out at an >>>>>> >>>>>> aggregate "throughput" range of ~10 Mbps per AP >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> To get better performance (up to 20 Mbps / AP), I give up >>>>>> interoperability >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 7. Support for multiline VOIP out of box ( UGS + 30K PPS ) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> At the expense of interoperability >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 8. Sub 350 cpe shipping today ( in 100 packs, less with frame order >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> commitments putting your cost sub 300 ) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Ubiquiti Lightstations are sub-$100 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Tranzeos / Deliberant / whatever are in the $100-200 range >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Motorola Canopy / Alvarion is in the $200-300 range >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Oh, and they (just like WiMAX) are basically proprietary >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 9. Carrier class systems vs Wisp class ( True 99.999% uptime >>>>>> solutions >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> available for base station equipment, reducing downtime and truck >>>>>> rolls >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Carrier Class = $10k APs >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> If you're willing to spend $10k for an AP - you can get a proprietary >>>>>> >>>>>> 'WISP' system that has all the "carrier-class" features of "WiMAX" >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 10. Carrier class network management systems that simplify >>>>>> provisioning >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> and management of subscribers and base stations. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Lol...I find this amusing...as the WiMAX specification >>>>>> "overcomplicates" >>>>>> >>>>>> the provisioning process, so you now have the need to purchase a >>>>>> system >>>>>> to >>>>>> >>>>>> simplify provisioning so it will work like a Canopy / Trango / >>>>>> Tranzeo / >>>>>> >>>>>> Alvarion =) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Supply and Demand at its best =/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> That said, if you are still interested in WiMAX after this "cold dose >>>>>> of >>>>>> >>>>>> reality," we have plenty of radios in stock =) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -Charles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> WISPA Wants You! 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