RE: Witango-Talk: Tango 2000 for Mac needed

[mike bravu]

Hello Rick,

Thank you for your response. However, with all due respect, I have to 
disagree.

The main reason is that by publishing this vulnerability With made my system 
a target for possible hackers. Now I MUST buy protection (sounds like 1930s 
Chicago).
Please notice that I have never said With has to fix the Tango "bugs". A 
vulnerability is not only a bug, but a software condition that can 
potentially break up a business, based on running that software application.
With of course is in its rights not to develop patches for something is not 
responsible for. But then I do not understand their position in protecting a 
product they do not want to have anything to do with. Remember this thread 
started when somebody asked about availability to a Tango Mac version of old 
software.
So, what is it? Is With interested or not interested in previous versions of 
Tango?
Besides, after all, it seems they are the only ones in the position to 
correct the code, since they have it. And incidentally I do not believe it 
is very difficult to do so; probably just a matter of hours. At this point I 
am sure that not providing a fix is basically a marketing decision.

How do companies survive by providing service-packs? By also establishing a 
good relationship with their customers.
In this case it is definitely more likely that a customer of the Tango 
product would upgrade or buy a Witango product, then a user of a different 
product (like ASP, PHP, Cold Fusion). So good relationship with very likely 
customers is essential. As far as I know, I would have felt very much 
obliged if With offered a free fix, or even a fix for a nominal charge, and 
I know for sure, since I like so much this product, I would have bought the 
upgrade as soon as I would have needed it.
As far as I understand this business, bug fixes and especially 
VULNERABILITIES should be offered free, and new features (upgrades) should 
be offered at a cost. Bugs that the manufacturer acknowledges prior to the 
purchase do not even need to be offered for free. In other words provide me 
with the quality that you promised.
And yes, I believe this is the standard business practice, as nowadays in 
use by main software manufacturers. And not only software manufacturers. For 
a better comparison, if Ford finds the breaking system does not work to one 
of their models -something I would call a major vulnerability- they would 
immediately offer a fix at their own cost. It has happened many times over.
Unfortunately there are exceptions, as you noted.

Mike Bravu.



-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Sanders [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 7:39 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Tango 2000 for Mac needed


Hey Mike,

First of all, you must remember that you don't really own the software. You 
have a license to use the software. This is standard across the software 
industry.


BTW: I own Tango 2000/SP1 for Windows, and I am not encouraging anybody to 
resort to piracy. I cannot agree with With trying to exercise claims to 
previous versions of Tango and, at the same time, no longer supporting 
Tango.
Tango 2000 was released by Pervasive and not With. Therefore, The software 
manufacturer in this case does not exist. With Enterprises has version 4.5 
and up. With bought the code from Pervasive to continue on the software, not 
make bug fixes to the old Tango.

The issue of knowing you have a vulnerability in the code to a product
that
you now own but do not offer a technical solution for a crucial feature is 
very troublesome. Forcing users to upgrade seems to me like blackmail.
What
choice do we have to keep our applications running?
It's the same with any software manufacturer. That's what keeps them going. 
If the software manufacturers always gave free service packs, the software 
manufacturer would go out of business paying the programmers! Eventually, it 
becomes less profitable to release service packs for the same version, hence 
a new version is released.

The software manufacturer has some obligations too. I understand I am not 
entitled at additional features for free, but I definitely am
entitled -for
free- to corrections to the code for which I paid. After all, you are only 
required to correct you own mistakes. You do have access to the code to be 
corrected, don't you?
These were Pervasive's mistakes, not With Enterprises'

As far as I am concerned, Tango 2000 works fine for what I need, and I do 
not have to upgrade right now, nor do I have the money to spend. But I
MUST
make sure I am not having known vulnerabilities in the application. My 
business depends on it.
Then, unfortunately you have to stick with an unsupported product. Tell me, 
if you call Microsoft with a Windows ME problem, what's the first thing they 
say? Give us your credit card number, and we'll help you. It's the same with 
many software companies. At least With is talking with existing Tango 2000 
customers for free and consulting them!

Now, installing a new upgrade in the production environment is not easy, 
making old code run takes time, effort etc. Based on what I read on this 
list (and beyond the time needed to go
through
the required reading associated with the adoption of a new version),
Witango
v5 was not really a smooth sailing. There were problems reported, which 
required time and patience to make the new Witango version run. And if all 
this effort is understandable to reap the benefits of new additional 
features that one might need, it is a possible a waste of time if you do
not
need them.
So even if the upgrade was for free, I would always prefer a patch. Am I 
stating the obvious? Providing free patches is standard business practice 
in the software world, isn't it?
If you can tell me of any application server software that was released with 
no bugs, please let me know. Macromedia had to release 4 service packs for 
Cold Fusion MX server because of big problems.

The second point, even more important, is that you want people to contact 
you, "to work something out" (on a case by case basis). Why is that? Why 
don't we have a solution in the open, for everybody to know? I can only 
assume here that people would be offered different prices based on their 
negotiating skills. This it is totally unacceptable.
It's simple. Individual people have individual needs! It's good customer 
service to help someone based upon their individual needs, rather than issue 
a policy standard resolution to any problem! I'm sure that With would handle 
your problems on an individual basis.

I am profoundly disappointed by With's lack of candor, understanding and 
support for their customers and, (at best) questionable selling tactics. 
Developing (or inheriting) a good product to sell cannot be cover to poor 
corporate behavior. Sooner or later we'll drop the product.
Well, if you're a Tango 2000 user, then you're not With Enterprises' 
customer! You're Pervasive's customer!

In a nutshell, I use Ghost by Symantec. I had the last version released by 
Byte Interactive which was 5.2. When Symantec bought the technology, did 
they give out service packs for free? Heck no! Version 6 was released within 
3 months after they bought it. If you didn't upgrade to version 6 by 
Symantec, then they wouldn't even talk to you. It's industry standard! 
Become a customer of With Enterprises, and you'll get all the support, 
service packs, and bug fixes your heart desires!

My 5 cents.

Rick Sanders

Mike Bravu.

-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Wade [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 1:21 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Tango 2000 for Mac needed
OK it is now time for me to add my 2 cents worth.

1 ...

2   Supply of the Pervasive branded evaluation copy falls under the same
license issues as the full product and carries the same license with it.
It
has the same licensing issues, that my support team mentioned earlier,
with
PopCharts and Data Directs ODBC Manager and drivers.  If it is the Mac OS
9
version, the installer is not even licensed to be distributed.

3   Migrating to Witango 5 provides you with several architectural
benefits
in the server, but it also provides you with the ability to receive bug 
fixes into the future.  The Witango 5 code will be maintained well after
the
v6 server is released this time next year.  The Tango 2000 code was
retired
coming up to 3 years ago and will not have any fixes made to it.  The T2K 
server has the cookie buffer overrun issue and there will not be a new 
release of T2K resolving this issue.

4   Work with us and we can work something out.  Go outside the channel
and
our hands are tied.

5   Wayne, if you had contacted us we could have tried to work something
out
as we have for many other T2K users during their migrations to Witango 5. 
You only work down the road, your in the same timezone and it is only a 
local call, so contact me and we can look at what you are trying to
achieve
and we can see what we can legally do to help you.

6 ...
Phil


On 2/8/03 5:06 PM, "Wayne Irvine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
>>By you wanting a Tango 2000 server, this means that you won't be 
>>getting it from With Enterprises. Since they are the ones who >>support 
and
develop
>>the product, they are the ones who are losing out.
>
>And ironically the reason I need a second copy is to allow me to 
>evaluate WiTango whilst leaving some sites on an undisturbed box. The 
>evaluation process needs to happen before I spend money on my WiTango 
>license.
>
>I will definitely contact you as a 30 day eval license is exactly >what I 
need.
>
>Thanks
>
>Wayne Irvine
>
>
>                 Byte Services Pty Ltd
>              http://www.byteserve.com.au/
>                 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  Ph 02 9960 6099   Mob 0409 960 609   Fax 02 9960 6088
>
>_____________________________________________________________________
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