Steve, And yes people abuse DL's i wont disagree with you, i neither use them or would use them, i feel DLs are as bad as tables because they are not semantically correct, but what i was saying is over Tables and a DL it would have to be a DL. Its best to use:
<form method="post" action="update.php"> <fieldset> <legend>Login Details</legend> <div><label>First Name:</label><input type="text" id="username" name="username"></div> <div><label>Password:</label><input type="password" id="password" name="password"></div> <button name="submit" value="submit" type="submit"> </fieldset> </form> And then style it with CSS. If styled correctly you can achive anything. And just to clarify, just as a DL is not semantic, neither is a table, and a table is not the answer. On 5/22/07, Steve Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
No, a form is not a list of form controls any more than a chapter of a book is a list of paragraphs or a paragraph is a list of words. A collection of form controls is a fieldset. Definition lists are the new tables. People are just falling over themselves trying to abuse them in all kinds of inappropriate ways. To paraphrase the previous message, a definition list is for lists of definitions, and if you're using it to style your page you need to take a strong look at what you're doing. Steve ------------------------------ *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Jamie Collins *Sent:* 22 May 2007 18:10 *To:* [email protected] *Subject:* Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout A table is for Tabular Date, a quote from the W3C Documentation: "Tables should not be used purely as a means to layout document content as this may present problems when rendering to non-visual media. Additionally, when used with graphics, these tables may force users to scroll horizontally to view a table designed on a system with a larger display. To minimize these problems, authors should use style sheets<http://../present/styles.html>to control layout rather than tables." There is a big debate around a DL, but in a sense a list of form inputs is infact just that, A LIST. So while you may be saying its wrong its more semantic then using a table. People need to understand that they cannot just return to tables because they dont know how to layout there forms or any other elements for that matter. A table is for tabular data, and if your using it to style your page you need to take a strong look at what your doing. Tables for layout, regardless of what your laying out is wrong. On 5/22/07, Steve Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I don't see how using a table is any worse than using a definition > list. Both are wrong. Any spurious argument you use to justify a definition > list can equally apply to a table. CSS can usually achieve anything you want > visually. > > Steve > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > *On Behalf Of *Jamie Collins > *Sent:* 22 May 2007 08:46 > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout > > Kane, exactly what i was going to say. > > And in no way, and i mean by no way should you use tables for forms, > unless its ment > for tabular date, the only way i can ever see this being possible is if > you were to create > a spreadsheet that allows the user to input details. Thats the only real > use i can > see for putting a form in a table. > > Go with the DL method or the DIV method. > > On 5/22/07, Kane Tapping <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > My view: > > > > 1. Use HTML for content > > 2. Use CSS for presentation > > 3. Use tables only for tabular data > > > > > > WCAG 1.0 has the following guidelines applicable to this question. > > > > 3.3 Use style sheets to control layout and presentation. > > 5.1 For data tables, identify row and column headers. > > 5.3 Do not use tables for layout unless the table makes sense when > > linearized. Otherwise, if the table does not make sense, provide an > > alternative equivalent (which may be a linearized version). > > 5.4 If a table is used for layout, do not use any structural markup > > for the purpose of visual formatting. > > 5.5 Provide summaries for tables. > > 10.2 Until user agents support explicit associations between labels > > and form controls, for all form controls with implicitly associated labels, > > ensure that the label is properly positioned. > > 10.3 Until user agents (including assistive technologies) render > > side-by-side text correctly, provide a linear text alternative (on the > > current page or some other) for all tables that lay out text in parallel, > > word-wrapped columns. > > 10.4 Until user agents handle empty controls correctly, include > > default, place-holding characters in edit boxes and text areas. > > 12.4 Associate labels explicitly with their controls. > > > > > > - Kane > > > > > > > > > > > > *"Benedict Wyss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>* > > Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > 22/05/2007 02:15 PM Please respond to > > [email protected] > > > > To > > [email protected] cc > > > > Subject > > [WSG] dl v table for form layout > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > I am having a discussion with colleagues here at work (won't mention > > our site as it stinks) about the best way forward for form layouts. > > > > I have one person saying he will continue to use tables till otherwise > > informed. > > > > I have another who uses none of the above, which you can imaging is > > not that good to look at with everything butting up against each other. His > > other suggestion was to add  's to move things about......... > > > > I like to use the definition list with Labels. > > > > Now I know the dl I am using is not being used exactly as it was > > originally used (good point), but I say it is 100 times better than tables. > > > > Can I get a WSG response on the best format to layout a form. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Ben > > > > ******************************************************************* > > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > ******************************************************************* > > > > ******************************************************************* > > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > ******************************************************************* > > > > > > ******************************************************************* > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > ******************************************************************* > > ******************************************************************* > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > ******************************************************************* > ******************************************************************* List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ******************************************************************* ******************************************************************* List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *******************************************************************
******************************************************************* List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *******************************************************************
