I think a style editor and someone in charge of maintaining styles serve
two different purposes. The style editor is very useful for people to
identify the styles they want and it's great to allow them to make small
alterations/customizations. Since we don't accept any style to the
repository, I think that's quite valuable and I'm very glad we have the
editor around.
But I completely agree with Charles that the style editor won't solve the
quality problem. Two reasons: 1. People without experience are less attuned
to details in styles - even the librarians I trained for Zotero often
missed small details. 2. As soon as you make larger changes, inexperienced
users write bad CSL, be it with the editor or without. (In particular they
use affixes instead of groups way too much).
I think fixing existing styles may take up less work than Charles suggest
- I think 10 a day isn't unrealistic. This is probably too low-tech for a
google-summer project, is it? Sylvester, any thoughts?
>The only thing I would add to your list is a way for your "developers" to
easily see the impact of a style change.
agreed - didn't Frank have something like that? Frank - is that still
around? Could you explain how it's working?
Sebastian
On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 2:13 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[email protected]> wrote:
> Yup, agree with you Charles.
>
> The only thing I would add to your list is a way for your "developers"
> to easily see the impact of a style change. So a preview of a style
> diff is you will.
>
> Bruce
>
> On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 4:06 PM, Charles Parnot <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >> 1) what the project would be to fix the problem? Is it a full-blown
> >> repository web app, for example, that could tightly integrate with the
> >> editor, that had the sort of broader review model I've previously
> >> advocated (e.g. that makes it easy and attractive for non-technical
> >> users to become style editors and reviewers)?
> >
> > I have recently come to the conclusion that a more attractive style
> editor, that could be used by "regular" people is not the way to go.
> Unfortunately, such a style editor will be really hard to do, and I am not
> even sure it can be done. I feel like the resources put into such an effort
> would be better spent in creating new styles, fixing existing ones, and
> cleaning things up. And yes, writing tools that help with this is also a
> good thing, but we have to strike the right balance between "user-friendly"
> and "developer-friendly". The recent Travis stuff has been very very
> useful, and a great asset for the project. I don't know if I would have
> dared to create all those Springer styles without it. And it was really set
> up very quickly, with relatively small efforts (of course, it looked like
> it from my end!), aided by somebody who knew the setup and approached
> things in a very pragmatic way.
> >
> > A grant to write a great CSL editor might be more sexy than paying
> somebody to just go through styles, but it would be more efficient for the
> project IMO.
> >
> > If you think of the CSL styles as code, then the distinction between a
> user and a developer is clear: the user is writing a paper and wants their
> f**ing bibliography to be done (but is OK reporting a problem) and the
> developers are the person contributing to the code (the XML!). Now, if we
> distinguish between the CSL "user" and the CSL "developer", there are still
> things that could be better done for both categories.
> >
> > For the users:
> >
> > - a better style browser, including a way to find a style that matches
> what they want (and yes, the current csl-editor is a good start for that)
> > - a better reporting tool for style issues, where such report should
> have clear fields about the expected output, the actual output, and the
> value of the different fields (ideally, with citeproc-js showing the
> output, so a user can reproduce the 'bug')
> >
> >
> > For the developers:
> >
> > - a better style browser (the same as the one for the users!!)
> > - a more strict process for submitting styles (what we discussed about
> pull requests)
> > - a better development environment, and the csl-editor has actually some
> very interesting components there; but again, we are talking about an
> editor for technical people, and that's fine, let's focus on that
> >
> > Charles
> >
> >
> > On Mar 30, 2013, at 8:21 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 2:44 PM, Rintze Zelle <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> ...
> >>
> >>> Personally, I would really like to see the process of submitting
> >>> styles to the repository become more automated. Sebastian Karcher,
> >>> Charles Parnot and I spend a lot of time handling style submissions.
> >>> The volume of style submissions has increased quite a bit over the
> >>> past year, and a large fraction of the work is just making sure that
> >>> the submissions are done correctly. While I have tried to document the
> >>> process as clearly as possible for users, we still deal with a lot of
> >>> incorrect GitHub pull requests, submissions of invalid CSL styles and
> >>> style metadata that hasn't been entered correctly. My motivation to
> >>> continue to perform this labor for free has its limits, so I welcome
> >>> any thoughts on how to lessen this burden.
> >>
> >> I think this is the key, and as you suggest, is not really sustainable.
> >>
> >> So the question is how we address:
> >>
> >> 1) what the project would be to fix the problem? Is it a full-blown
> >> repository web app, for example, that could tightly integrate with the
> >> editor, that had the sort of broader review model I've previously
> >> advocated (e.g. that makes it easy and attractive for non-technical
> >> users to become style editors and reviewers)?
> >>
> >> 2) how do we fund it?
> >>
> >> On 2, I'm not really sure, but think some kind of logical
> >> institutional home would be helpful. What would be the appropriate
> >> medium and forum for us to explore different options (like, if a grant
> >> app, who would do it, and how?) here?
> >>
> >> Bruce
> >>
> >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >> _______________________________________________
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> >
> > --
> > Charles Parnot
> > [email protected]
> > twitter: @cparnot
> > http://mekentosj.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Own the Future-Intel® Level Up Game Demo Contest 2013
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> > Compete for recognition, cash, and the chance to get your game
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>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Rise to greatness in Intel's independent game demo contest.
> Compete for recognition, cash, and the chance to get your game
> on Steam. $5K grand prize plus 10 genre and skill prizes.
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--
Sebastian Karcher
Ph.D. Candidate
Department of Political Science
Northwestern University
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