Hi ! I fully agree with Tim here !
Xboard is a part of the large GNU-Project and that shouldn't be ignored. The maintask of X-/Winboard is still playing chess over the internet and viewing games. It might be hurts X-/Winboard if people starts developing on X-/Winboard with the own only focus on "computerchess" and all related topics with that. You're guys losing the view, the reality, how and why Xboard is used today from ten-thousands of people out there. At least i like the idea of an additional installer over the net :) Best, Daniel -------- Original-Nachricht -------- > Datum: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:22:59 -0700 > Von: Tim Mann <[email protected]> > An: "h.g. muller" <[email protected]> > CC: [email protected], [email protected] > Betreff: Re: [XBoard-devel] Bundling WinBoard 4.4 > I think we still need an installer rather than (say) a zip file > that the user has to manually unzip and create his own shortcuts to, > etc. People who like to tinker don't need them, but I think the > average Windows user expects and needs one. Maybe you're not > suggesting that we get rid of the installer, though, but just saying > you don't personally like them...? > > It seems good to me to reexamine what we bundle with the WinBoard > installer. I'd definitely agree to get rid of GNU Chess 4, but I'd > like to keep GNU Chess 5 there just because xboard/WinBoard is > officially part of the GNU project. However, if the engine you > suggested that can play a lot of variants is also good at conventional > chess, maybe we could include only that one -- I'm not dead set on > including a GNU Chess version. > > Adding other useful stuff seems good too, as long as we make sure the > extras don't get in the way or cause confusion for beginning/basic > users who don't care about the extras, but just want to play > conventional chess against the default engine or on a chess server. > People like that are usually the majority. > > Mark's idea of an installer that knows how to download more stuff is > interesting, though I think it could turn into a big project if pushed > to its logical conclusion. One would really like to be able to > download and add in more engines and/or other accessories at any time, > but there are hundreds of engines that can be downloaded from various > places... > > --Tim > > On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 17:53:01 +0200, "h.g. muller" <[email protected]> > wrote: > > I already raised this point in a private mail to Arun, but I would like > to > > put it up for > > discussion in public. It is about the bundling strategy used for the > > distribution of the > > WinBoard executable. For XBoard this is not an issue, as Linux users do > not > > appreciate bundling and rely on the package depency mechanism to acquire > their > > software. But for WinBoard bundling is really essential, as Windows > users > > are in > > general tot capable to install anything that does not come with the > initial > > install. > > So important components, like Polyglot, must not be missing. In > addition, > > we should > > provide data files for some of the new features to be usable in the > > install, such as > > bitmaps for the board texture, and an opening book. > > > > From the e-mail extchange between Arun and me: > > > > ------------------------ quote ----------------------- > > > I think 4.2.8 comes with some sort of windows installer, do you know > > anything about this? > > > > I have seen that, and I guess I have even used it first time I installed > > WinBoard on > > one of my systems (which must have been in 2006). But I positively hate > > installers, > > and since that first install, I only copy winboard.exe files from one PC > to > > another. > > (Note that I did ignore the entry where Chessknight did the initial > logging > > of the > > installer files in the CVS.) > > > > Anyway, the way the installer would install WinBoard on a Windows PC > looks > > nothing > > like the way I distribute WinBoard 4.3.15. For one, it contains the GNU > > Chess engines, > > which I think we should really abandon. GNU Chess might have been of > > interest and even > > instrumental at the conception of XBoard, but today it is just a > mediocre > > Chess engine > > amongst many hundreds. It is not particularly good (there are free > engines > > that are > > more than 500 Elo stronger, even as open source), it is not particularly > > small, (strongly > > driving up the size of the download), it does not play any variants > except > > 'normal'... > > So to dump not one, but even two versions of it on every WinBoard user > is > > really silly. > > > > OTOH, much of the essential supporting software is missing in the 4.2.7 > > install. Poor > > bundling is one of the main causes of the demise of WinBoard as main > Chess > > interface > > on Windows. For the average Windows user that would benefit from an > > installer, having > > to download supporting software is a real show stopper, as in general > they > > would not > > know where to find it, or where to put it to make it work with WinBoard. > So > > they cannot > > run any UCI engines because they lack Polyglot. They cannot run engine > > tournaments > > because they lack a Tournament Manager. So they turn to other GUIs that > > have these > > functions as intrinsic features. > > > > For this reason we created the 'WinBoard Gold Pack', (downloadble from > > WinBoard forum) > > which contains a complete installation tree of ready-to-run executables, > > containing not only > > WinBoard (as executable), but aso Polyglot, PSWBTM, an opening book, an > > example > > WB engine and an example UCI engine, example bitmap files for board > > textures, PGN > > and EPD files with test positions, etc. In other words, all the stuff > they > > badly need, in stead > > of the stuff they don't care about from the 4.2.7 installer package. > > > > As example WB engine in the Gold Pack I use Fairy-Max, because: > > 1) it is tiny (some 100KB uncompressed including all docs, only 35KB for > > the engine proper). > > 2) it plays many variants next to noarmal Chess (Gothic Chess, Shatranj, > > Courier Chess etc.). > > > > ----------------- end of quote -------------- > > > > So I want to propose a new bundling strategy for WinBoard 4.4.1 > (compared > > to 4.2.7), abandoning > > GNUChess, including Polyglot and an opening book, and perhaps a > true-type > > Chess font > > -- > Tim Mann [email protected] http://tim-mann.org/ > > > _______________________________________________ > XBoard-devel mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/xboard-devel _______________________________________________ XBoard-devel mailing list [email protected] http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/xboard-devel
