On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:31:11 -0700 Ted Gould <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:
> On Sat, 2007-08-04 at 12:02 +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote: > > well... this is no new problem. it's been around for years. in the end - the > > wm's win, because you need one for a sane desktop. whatever they steal in > > terms of key (and mouse) bindings is what a user comes to EXPECT from > > functionality on ALL their windows (eg - alt+left mouse to move, alt+right > > mouse for wm window menu etc.). there is a kind of pseudo-standard (just by > > virtue that a lot of wm's come this way by default) that there seems to be > > a common convention that alt + button is what wm's take - anything else if > > open for apps. > > I guess my real concern is that it's alt today, meta tomorrow and > control next week? It seems like in general that there should be some > consistency here. That way someone knows where their mouse events are > going (though I doubt they'll think about it that way). aaah - then concern yourself no longer. it has - by convention, been alt for a very very very long time now - i know enlightenment hasn't changed its default bindings in about 10 years and i know other wm's have been using alt+mouse for a long time too. > > now i ask - why do u think it's bad apps use met - but you now promote wm's > > to use it instead of alt? you are basically saying "i don't want to use > > meta - so i want to force wm's to do the thing i am not willing to". at the > > end of the day > > - this is highly unfair as your point about the meta key being "not always > > there" is valid - and all you do is put the problem onto the wm's. > > No, the reason that I was suggesting that a WM use meta is because in > general, I think the desktop knows a lot more about the hardware that > it's working with. Application do, and should, know very little. it doesn't know anything more than inkscape does. they are in the same boat. a wm doesn't have any special knowledge of your keyboard setup that inkscape can't find out in exactly the same way :) > Things like accessibility and keyboard configuration are done at a > desktop/WM level -- so I thought it would make more sense to also use, > or not use, the meta key at that level. I believe that there are also > internationalization issues here, though I'm ignorant to other keyboard > layouts myself. a lot of wm's allow users to reconfigure bindings - but it's up to a user to change this for themselves. generally speaking how the wm comes by default is what people end up using anyway, and they just tend to extend it a bit and add some things they like. > > personally- i think you need to find a way to do what you need without > > needing more and more modifier keys. i know a lot of wm's will keep being > > shipped using alt+button because they have been shipped that way for 10+ > > years. it's been a default feature for a decade and it's not going away. > > you need to find a way to work with it. i would SOONER specify "alt + > > button is reserved for wm's - apps need to use anything else" because wm's > > "were there first", "steal the buttons before your app can do anything > > about it" and "it's an incredibly useful feature to have on ALL windows" as > > opposed to losing it on ALL windows just so 1 app can have more bindings. > > If that's the case, I think FreeDesktop should have something that says > that. I think we should give as many bindings as possible to apps in > general. i think it hasn't been put up because this is a bit of a bed of thorns. decreeing alt+buttons are not to be used by apps (or by wm's) just brings out the war machine :) in the end we have a status-quo where there is a psuedo-convention but it's not enshrined officially, thus keeping the peace :) > > the only sensible suggestion here i think is some form of hint on the window > > that says "i use alt+button 1, alt+button 2, ctrl+button 1 etc." so the wm > > MIGHT be nice and disable any of its own bindings if they conflict - just on > > that window. the problem here now is inconsistent UI experience and control > > - i go to my inkscape window and press alt+button 1 to drag the window and > > it doesn't - it does something else. the element of least surprise is > > violated. every window i have does it - except this one now. so though it > > is technically solvable to give you bindings back - it now leads to a bad > > UI experience and users i think will be better off if you try and stick to > > the pseudo-conventions in-place? remember this problem exists for key > > bindings as well - you could complain that "wm's steal alt+tab from apps - > > i want wm's to stop that so i can get more key combinations for my app". > > it's not going to happen - there are many common key-bindings too that wm's > > use and there are pseudo-conventions there. > > I agree that the bindings should not be overloaded. The only way I > could see this making sense is if the WM provided some sort of feedback > to the user that they have been overloaded -- and icon on the title bar > or something. But, I think in general that would be confusing. i think this is useful. at least the user gets a hint they are missing some functionality (and can dig into it). > I general, today we are seeing that confusion. People regularly e-mail > the Inkscape lists complaining they can't get features to work (not only > alt-mouse) because those keys are stolen by the WM or Desktop or > whatever. This is a more than minorly annoying support issue. indeed this is a problem for you - agreed. but there is no silver bullet i think. wm's need button and key bindings to function sensibly for users. they impose this desktop-wide they also tend to get in first and steal them before apps are run. wm's mostly provide ways to reconfigure this - but applications tend to not play "good citizen" and allow users to change these things for the app - they expect the wm to conform around the apps. in the end i think the best is that these are configurable - on both ends. a set of properties to allow the wm or the app to let the user know that some bindings/functionality has been stolen by the wm or is used by the app is probably good - but you need a configuration mechanism to be able to address that. the wm's config will apply to everything, if inkscape had it it would only affect inkscape and thus keep a users desktop consistent. all i can suggest is that there are general conventions around - alt+mouse button seems to be generally used by the wm. alt+tab/alt+shift tab tends also to be stolen. i can also say that e, by default, uses alt+Fn keys for desktop switching, alt+shift+arrow keys, ctrl+alt+arrow keys and ctrl+alt and a bunch of other keys. generally speaking ctrl+alt TOGETHER have been a fairly safe thing for wm's to use as they tend to be rarely used by apps. ctrl+alt+delete for example for logout/exit, ctrl+alt+end for restarting the wm, ctrl+alt+x for closing a window, ctrl+alt+s for toggling stickiness, ctrl+alt+r for toggling shading, ctrl+alt+i for iconifying, ctrl+alt+k to KILL a window - the nasty way, etc. you get the general trend there. i've tried to keep clear of stealing bindings already in use when i originally set up the defaults - alt+Fn is there instead of ctrl+alt only because x itself uses ctrl+alt+Fn to flip consoles. alt+mouse is there historically only because it was very fast and easy to use and has now entrenched itself. -- ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) [EMAIL PROTECTED] 裸好多 Tokyo, Japan (東京 日本) _______________________________________________ xdg mailing list [email protected] http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xdg
