Hey, Am Sun, 19 Oct 2008 20:29:16 +0200 schrieb Fabian Nowak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > Take two dialogs like 'Appearance Settings' and 'Accessibility > > Settings'. If one is translated as 'Erscheinungsbild' and the other > > is translated as 'Barrierefreiheitseinstellungen für Xfce 4' this > > not consistent. Personally, I'd prefer to use generic names. > > 'Xfce4', 'Xfce' and 'Xfce 4' doesn't have to appear everywhere. > > Totally agree. Was somehow on my TODO list as well. Though, we should > try to make it suit the menu where they are listed as well as the > settings dialog. I think this is where the dilemma arises from. Yeah. I was planning to talk to the other devs about this. I guess it makes sense to use generic names in the desktop files as well since most of them are only visible in Xfce anyway. > > > > > > - If a group of labels ends with ":" in English, > > > > don't drop the ":" in some of their German translations but not > > > > in others. > > > > > > Ah yes, when there are 20 strings marked fuzzy and you > > > repair one by one, some msgstrings might stay unchanged with the > > > colon left or removed -- part of the revisioning process. > > > > Ideally you'd translate, then install the translations and see how > > they look in the actual UI. If you do that, you'll notice the > > differences. > > Sure, and you note roughly 80 to 99 percent of the changes and > mistakes, and you don't see everyone, you will also not see every > string simply because you're human. Yeah, I know. Sorry - I told you that mail was a bit of a rant, didn't I? ;) > > > > > > > > > > b) - "Enable" does not mean "einstellen". It means > > > > "aktivieren", "einschalten", "verwenden", "benutzen" or > > > > whatever depending on the context it is used in. > > > > > > Uuh, you can't say that in general. The thing is that sometimes > > > the devs themselves just use *some* string; and the translators > > > have to fix it by choosing the correct words, not the direct > > > translation. Of course, you might still be right; please point to > > > the exact translation then. > > > > It's right, a lot of our English strings could use some > > improvements. But "einstellen" is neutral (it doesn't say whether > > something is going to be activated or deactivated) whereas "enable" > > clearly is the opposite of "disable" and thus explains what it does. > > Ah, I see what you mean. Of course, it's not used in the sense of > "configure", but "anstellen, einstellen, aktivieren". Though, I do > personally like "einstellen" way more than the others, but I agree on > the confusing effect for users, so better not use "einstellen" there. I forgot there also is "ausstellen". But still, "einstellen" is ambiguous in that it often only means that there is something to configure. Yep. > > > > - "Button" is not "Knopf" - it's "Schaltfläche"! > > > > > > Button is "Knopf". See your given URL, way more translations for > > > "Knopf". Thus, I asked a MAC user how she would translate it. Her > > > first reply was "Knopf". Asked about what to expect from > > > "Schaltfläche", she answered "a wide button", meaning like a > > > toggle button. She later admitted, that Apple might have chosen > > > "Schaltfläche" everywhere, but asked on how to label the OK > > > buttons on the small information dialogs etc, she answered > > > "Knopf" again. So it depends on the context; but in general, > > > "Knopf" is correct, "Schaltfläche" is something different. > > > (Actually, one part of my in-depth examinations at university was > > > usability in real-time systems such as big terminals etc.: > > > Human-Machine Interfaces in Production Environments) > > > > (That doesn't impress me too much. My minor subject at the > > University is all about user interfaces and usability as well.) > > > > Personally, I strongly prefer "Schaltfläche". But I agree that you > > can argue about that. If you check > > http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schaltfl%C3%A4che or > > http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grafische_Benutzeroberfl%C3%A4che > > you'll not find "Knopf" anywhere. To me it sounds just wrong. > > C'mon on, you are not going to reference Wikipedia at all, are you? This is no scientific discussion, is it? Wikipedia suits as well as any other non-scientific website if we are to argue about which word is more commonly used for 'button'. And actually, I didn't want to prove anything with that Wikipedia link - my point is that there seems to be no consensus on this. At the end it comes down to personal taste I guess. > > > > > > > - "Tastendrücke" and "Mausklicks" are two completely > > > > different things. Don't confuse them. > > > > > > Sure, just recently tried to differentiate on them; so please > > > report directly the context or lines where you find it confused. > > > > In the case of xfce4-settings, I've already committed updated > > translations for all the things mentioned here. See > > > > http://svn.xfce.org/index.cgi/xfce/revision/?rev=28302 > > > > for what I changed. > > This is what I don't like too much; actually there's Maximilian to > commit our changes. Or there should be a real coordiantor for the > German translation process again (I do *not* volunteer on doing that, > I like translating some modules; not managing the team). I know that Maximilian handles translation updates. But I don't see why I should waste his time with my translations if he is going to commit them anyway. (It's not that he checks if all translations are correct before comitting them.) > > > - I had used "Verwaltung" as often as possible for 4.4, though > > > people tended to use manager like a sports manager everywhere, > > > which simply is wrong; we are not playing football or rugby. > > > Instead, "Verwaltung" is way better for most applications except > > > for the "file manager" as Windows made "Dateimanager" popular. We > > > still should revert "Window manager" to "Fensterverwaltung" as is > > > also proposed by the translation suggester. > > > > "Fenstermanager" seems to be used a lot in GNOME and KDE (more than > > "Fensterverwaltung") and I think that's good. "Verwaltung" sounds > > passive whereas "Manager" sounds like an object that actually does > > something. > > Once again, neither Gnome nor KDE are reference, especially if you > look at how the translated "window manager" - they also included > Deppenleerzeichen and made other mistakes as well. Once again, even > Microsoft wasn't able to differentiate passee composee from the > infinitive; but no French translation team should argue on that. Even if we don't take GNOME or KDE as a reference, I still prefer "Fenstermanager". On the wiki page I read that someone (you?) complained about "Manager" not being German. I don't know where that story about the woman who doesn't understand what a "Manager" does comes from, but I disagree. It might not be ultra-German but it's been part of our language for years if not decades. And as opposed to "Verwaltung" it doesn't sound so bureaucratic at least ;) > > > > > > - the exaggeration of Deppenleerzeichen: due to unknowingness of > > > language and unwillingness of package designers and creators of > > > advertisements to stop that "Compayname Product<DLZ>name" scheme, > > > German language is now regarded correct when using "Xfce > > > Einstellungen". Of course, "Fenstermanager Einstellungen" is still > > > incorrect and at least companies are beginning to revert these > > > faults -- have a look at Maggi and Knorr instant meal things and > > > the older and newer packages: you can see them chaning back to > > > separating with a dash or concatenating the words again properly. > > > We should see/think again where we can remove the > > > Deppenbindestriche and improve readability and usability without > > > breaking (common) German language. > > > > You can avoid things like "Xfce Einstellungen" (which I think is > > wrong because it should be "Xfce-Einstellungen" and that still > > sucks) by using generic names like "Einstellungen". You can also > > avoid things like "Fenstermanagereinstellungen" by just using > > "Fenstermanager". > > So, let's enhance these translations as much as possible, if noone > argues against. ACK. I've had some hard times to find the right item in the settings menu during the past months. With the 'einstellungen' suffix labels just become too long. - Jannis
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