Cde BrendanLee I completely concur that this debate needs closure unless there is more that these comrades seeks to achieve that I am beginning to suspect without relegating myself to the level of being a soothsayer. Lets burry this debate because "car wars" are not battle that requires more of our energy hence should be left with DA and those pursuing must please leave us because we anticipate debates that will make, us, MDM, country to move forward. As for a comrade based in student admission (something to that effect) in UCT, let me not reveal the challenges that you should be assisting PYA with there in UCT (if you have not started) to ensure that the struggle for access and success continues instead of rushing to comment on peripheral issues that excite DA darlings more than the working class that you claim to be speaking on behalf of. Comrade VC could have never been more correct that most of you argue from an intellectual point of view (sitting in safe and air-conditioned offices and there is nothing wrong for as long it does lead to be co-opted into the liberal agenda) hence do not know how it is to work with instruments that are unsafe merely because of some concern for the costs of buying safe instruments etc. Therefore, I exhort you to desist from projecting yourselves as self-appointed moralist please please please Cdes. Worse, your argument lacks (what I call) theoretical and practical substance, if you understand what I mean but you are quick to accuse others. Away With "Car Wars" and its instigators Away Maatla, T.S. Zondi
>>> BrendanLee <[email protected]> 9/11/2009 10:16 AM >>> Firstly comrades, This is an open forum, and as a result some form of discipline must be entertained. Of course in order to keep debate going it is not wrong for someone to play devil*s advocate as long as they are not directly attacking party policy. All discussions however, must be recognised as something that is publically accessible and as a result treated as such. Secondly, Everyone seems to be asking for the proof that this car can stand up against an AK47. This is not a question that should be asked at those who don*t disagree with the car. Blade was advised to get the car based on advised security features, that question should be asked at the advisers. What we are discussing is weather blade should have taken the car based on the financial cost, Which seems to be the only real point of discontent. On another note, how many bullet proof cars can stop a rocket propelled grenade? Not many and they are not difficult to get your hands on if i was intent on killing a minister it would be much easier to blast an explosive at a car then run close up and hope a stray bullet not only makes contact but creates a fatal wound. Thirdly, I do feel that personal attacks are not beneficial to a creative and developmental discourse, and i have also noted some comrades in other discussions in the past make these remarks, its one thing to attack someone who is clearly trying to cause discontent like *SASCO member* a few months back was, it is another to attack individuals who are engaging on the same debate. Finally, Comrades, why are we still stuck on this debate? It is a non-starter, it does not benefit anybody on this forum and regardless of the final conclusion as to whether or not the vehicles are returned does not matter either, 1 million R is not a huge amount of money when talking on terms of government, it will have no bearing on expenditure for critical services. Also the *message it puts across is less then significant, people don*t run around crying about the fact that a minister leaves in a 10 roomed house when they live in a 2 roomed government build in the township. I think individuals have broken free from the public discourse on the matter and are basing their views on the liberal media which intellectualises discussions to the point of pure abstraction from reality. On a side note forc ing ministers to ride public transport wont speed up its development, it will only slow down parliament. All of the world class public transportation systems are and were not used by the minister who built or are building them (London, Moscow, currently Caracas... Hugo Chavez rides around in a very nice car) On Sep 11, 9:31 am, "Thembinkosi Josopu" <[email protected]> wrote: > ** High Priority ** > > Thanks comrade Trevor equally i am still awaiting a reply from Cde > Dominic as to whether this 7 series if it happens to be in a serious > accident then all shall be safe without scars whatsoever as compared to > Lexus...this political blackmailing is not assisting because Cde Dominic > now is playing a psychological game by continuously referring to DA > intending to make us feel guilty about rasing our concerns in this > forum...we know those tricks comrade, talk on the issues instead of > personal attacks... > > Au Revoir > > Thembinkosi Josopu > Student Admissions & Advocacy Services > University of Cape Town > Level 3, Kramer Law building > Middle Campus > Rondebosch,7700 > Tel :021-650-2429 > Fax:021-650-4014 > > Our Character as a people is not being tested during the best of times > > >>> "Trevor" <[email protected]> 2009/09/11 09:15 AM >>> > > A typical response from you *Comrade* Dominic. When all else > fails.......label people and personalise attacks. Why is it so difficult > for you to attack or defend arguments? If you or the *Security Advisors* > can prove that the BMW 750i can stop an AK47 bullet please do so. Your > arguments have no substance. > We are not debating this issue in the media. We are taking up the issue > internally in the YCLSA forum, which is our right as members in good > standing of the SACP according to the SACP Constitution. You have failed > dismally in countering any of our arguments. As a senior member of the > SACP, it time you show your maturity and set a good example to the youth > that engage in this forum. You are doing a lot of good work like setting > up this forum and the Communist University, but you tarnish the good > work you do by behaving in this manner. Please try to be more mature in > the manner in which you handle debates. > > Kind Regards, > > Trevor Joseph > Mobile: +27 82 946 3877 > Fax: +27 86 606 2130 > Email: [email protected] > > From:[email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dominic Tweedie > Sent: 11 September 2009 08:40 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [YCLSA Discussion] Re: Fwd: [COSATU Press] COSATU says No to > ministers' expensive cars > > Rosa Luxemburg, responding in 1900 (in *Reform or Revolution*) to > Eduard Bernstein*s 1899 book *Evolutionary Socialism*, wrote that > Bernstein had done the world a favour, because not only had he for the > first time openly made a virtue of class-collaboration, but he had also > said everything that could possibly be said in its favour, which > Luxemburg quickly disposed of. Subsequent history has proved Luxemburg > correct about Bernstein, the prophet of reformism. > > In his *The State and Revolution*, in 1917, Lenin also took Bernstein*s > renegade work as a reference point, but in addition remarked that the > *opportunists* (that is the reformists; the class-collaborationists; > the liberals) are the *twin brothers* of the *anarchists* (that is, the > petty-bourgeois ultra-lefts). This, too has always proved to be the > case, and is once again shown to be true in South Africa*s new > liberal/anarchist *car wars* brouhaha. > > Long before Lenin and Luxemburg, Karl Marx had noted that every > bourgeois is ready to take up the cry for cheap government, while at the > same time wanting to use the state to the maximum for tenders and > contracts, and caring nothing for the hypocrisy of shouting for both of > these contradictory demands at the same time. That has not changed, > either. > > All of this can be clearly seen in the *car wars* episode. > > Some of our reformists on this forum, and no doubt the reformists in > COSATU, as well, think that having legitimised the DA*s liberal > argument, and having thereby opened a Pandora*s box, they can seize upon > the last remaining pestilence * hope * and thereby wish away the ills > that they have unleashed. > > But they will not be able to wish these ills away. Instead, this > monst > er is going to grow, and it will overshadow all their other efforts > in the bourgeois public realm, including the COSATU Congress as a whole, > unless they are exceedingly lucky. And why should the DA let them have > that luck? > > Our resident anarchist, Claire Ceruti, is also caught in a pact with > the liberal DA devil, in exactly way that Lenin predicted for all such > anarchists. *Too much!* she scolds, echoing the DA. > > Now it only remains for the DA to press the button again, and Ceruti is > forced to support them again. Sure enough, the very next day, the DA > does just that, and the bourgeois media amplifies the cry. Now there are > letters, op-eds, and Zapiro, and dozens of reporters are out looking for > new ways to denounce government expenditure of all kinds. > > For our reformists and anarchists there is no controllable end to this, > comrades. They have made a tacit pact with the devil and they must now > go on a devil*s ride to hell. > > The right wing is not going to leave this alone. The end of the matter, > as Rosa Luxemburg noted, is only one: revolution. Until then, there are > two kinds of people in this political world. There are the > falsely-moralising liberals and anarchists on the one side, and there > are the communists on the other. > > As communists we are used to being told to apologise for existing. > There has never been a time when we did not have this nonsense thrown at > us. > > The people who have been most perceptive in this YCLSA discussion are > Lucky Masuku and before him, Samson Zondi, who wrote: The Defense for > the GS equals the Defense of the Working Class Struggle! > > That is correct, and it is vital that the defence of the working class > struggle gets into gear now, and does not slacken again at any time > between now and Christmas. > > May we be victorious again in Polokwane! Down with the opportunists and > the anarchists! The struggle continues! > > VC > > LUCKY MASUKU wrote: > > Cadres > > You see, the manner in which some of us think leaves a lot to be > desired, I honestly think that some of us are not either honest or > objective when discussing this matter, in the first place you must > really ask yourself as to how did this matter link into the media and > beyond that wether the were any wrong doing by the department concern in > purchasing the car. > > beforre you actually give names to our own senior leaders, for you > information the minister does not buy any car rather the beaurocrats are > the one responsible for that, and this is indeed done in line with the > ministerial handbook, I think the department concern has clarified this > issue as to the processes that unfolded. it must be noted that the > department followed all the procedure in the of the PFMA in terms of > ensuring that our communist leader is indeed safe, > > The recession did not at any stage thaught us that we must infact > compromise the life of our leaders in the interest saving. the life of > the state leaders in any countries are being put first hence they are > provided with VIP security 24 hrs and their houses are also secured by > VIP security, this is the responsibilty of every state in the world. it > is strange that our own so called communist would have the problem when > a department chooses to ensure that as per the guidelines of the > ministerial handbook, its minister is provided with a safe and reliable > car, that will ensure that he execute his duties without any technical > problem from the vehicle, hence this cars are put a blue light. > > You see, the greatest enemy of the National Democratic Revolution is > infact our own comrade, this comrade infact do not have any argument > with regard to the car, infact they want to raise their own > dissatisfaction of the SG being deployed by the ANC to the government > and this are people who works day a night and try their best to destroy > our own progressive cadres within the movement, > > The issue of the SG being deployed in governement its a Party issue and > not for this forum, this cadres if they are members of > the party and > they have a problem with that, they must raise their dissatisfaction to > their branches, rather try and deal with character assassination here, > > infact this cadres if they are indeed progressive cadres, they should > have been discussing as to how best can we support the office of the SG > in the COSATU House so as to ensure that the work of the party > continues, for their iformation, that office has been thus far stregthen > to merely deal with their concern. > > while we acknowledge that this is the constitutional matter but as > communist, we would one day want to see the SACP leading the South > African State, are we saying that when we reach that stage we must have > two centred of powers, NO! i do not think so leaders, > > infact we were supposed to be proctecting the SG against this > tendencies of the special type which has started again, because honestly > that is not the SG car rather its a Government car. > > Amandla > > --- On Thu, 9/10/09, Mamphekgo,Steve (GPDPR) > <[email protected]> ( > > mailto:[email protected] ) wrote: > > From: Mamphekgo,Steve (GPDPR) <[email protected]> ( > mailto:[email protected] ) > Subject: [YCLSA Discussion] Re: Fwd: [COSATU Press] COSATU says No to > ministers' expensive cars > To: [email protected] > Date: Thursday, September 10, 2009, 12:44 PM > Mxo, u r correct mchana. I think our comrades (Cabinet Ministers) must > lead by example. There is no excuse for our own trusted comrades to > fall > into the bourgeoisie tendencies of fancy cars and lavish lifestyles, > whilst our people are trapped in abject poverty. Comrades must just > swallow their pride and take those cars back. > > COSATU is correct, whether the DA shares the same views or not, by > making a public call for the ... > > read more * Please find our Email Disclaimer here: http://www.ukzn.ac.za/disclaimer/ --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You are subscribed. This footer can help you. Please POST your comments to [email protected] or reply to this message. You can visit the group WEB SITE at http://groups.google.com/group/yclsa-eom-forum for different delivery options, pages, files and membership. To UNSUBSCRIBE, please email [email protected] . You don't have to put anything in the "Subject:" field. You don't have to put anything in the message part. 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