Ok, Ted! Thanks for your clarification. Let's see...
It is always a pleasure to get your attention. But its a little
frustrating to have the question not be answered.
I can only improve, Ted, as I come to understand your ideas. A bit at
a time. Somedays and sometimes I am better than others. Sometimes I
get it, sometimes I don't.
Nothing personal. Just human nature to not have complete insight on a
topic, happens to everyone. This is where patience is a virtue, comes
in. No point in getting frustrated when our limitations come into
play. Likewise, we'll see a little later, there's no point not
overcoming Nature's tendency which we all have to wait for the apple or
fruit to fall from a tree before we can eat. Waiting for Nature or
someone else to do something when you are quite capable to learn to
achieve it yourself -- not a plan. Not a plan, if you choose
participating in the drive of Living Life.
This is a Philosophical approach expressing it this way, obviously.
But it appears that the force of Evolution, the same force Darwin
describes, moves this way also. It may be basic, inherently unfair,
but it is quite clear that we did not descend from the life form which
waited to have it's food or anything else come to itself. We ourselves
might live for "take out", but our ancestors who got us here knew no
such luxury.
However, having expressed that does not mean that we are all condemned
to acquire Doctorates in advanced areas of Software Engineering. All
the various Linux distributions have improved a very great deal
regarding how they provide support and assistance to various users of
all kinds. Sure there are gaps! Cyberspace has the analogs of
Physical Space, valleys, gullies, trenches and even canyons. And
likewise a human is well prepared if one does not hold to the attitude
of waiting for development to "just happen" so that it somehow
miraculously addresses ones views so one can eventually easily navigate
the Linux terrain. In the meantime, the less brave, skilled or sturdy
can do exactly what you do... raise discussions and questions regarding
what you are looking for and helping the rest of us -- get a clue -- or
a better understanding of what matters to you. That's exactly what
this forum or email system TSS has set-up is for. A conduit to listen
to persons like you and I. Can there be improvements, sure.
I'm pretty sure that all the Linux distributions want to improve what
they do, although there is some disagreement regarding how to do that
improvement and just what the "improvement" really means in real world
terms. Ubuntu Linux appears to me to practically offer to put one to
bed at night with warm cocoa followed by a story complete with hugs.
However, although I am teasing them, I do respect their effort and
drive and they have, despite my ribbing, my sincere good-will. Besides
we all need some warm cocoa and a story and a hug at any age --
sometimes. The offer that it's there, is nice.
Ubuntu Linux, however follows Debian and Debian's most recent published
standard release as I correctly presented, is behind YDL's standard
release.
Suppose I really do want KDE. Or even suppose that whatever I want, i
want to be current. Will paying for YDL.net help with that?
I think I answered that question. I don't think it's TSS's job to do
the work KDE is supposed to do or have completed within a certain
period.
YDL.net as I understand the service provides the most packages
available which function together ahead of any other standard package.
I can ask the question of them, but you also can ask TSS directly as
well. Tell you what, I'll present your question as you asked (I won't
reinterpret it for you, meaning I won't rewrite or explain what I think
you mean) it -- to TSS. You do likewise from your end. You post what
you find out here on this thread. I'll post what I find out on this
thread as well. Deal? or No Deal?
Forgive my twisted humor, I just wanted to work in that phrase. I'm
really amazed and happy for Howie Mandel in his successful new program,
I remember first seeing him in "Little Monsters" years ago, wondering
-- who is this guy and why do I think I know him?
Well, my point was that Fedora goes way out of its way to support even
their non-preferred desktop.
I find this observation a little strange. Really? Doesn't every Linux
distribution support every desktop version they provide as part of
their standard release? You mean that there are Linux distributions
which strip out the help systems which developers such as KDE, Gnome,
Fluxbox, Enlightenment and all the others -- put in? Wow, I didn't
know that -- that is down right mean. Well, I can verify that in every
incarnation of YDL each desktop environment has had a completely
available and useable help system with complete access to all areas of
that desktop environment complete with ways to reach each development
group for each desktop environment regarding any questions. I know
because I've availed myself of using every help feature possible in the
various desktop systems provided standard within YDL.
Or you are speaking of support other than the help systems developed by
the desktop environment designers? In other words, support of KDE from
someone other than KDE? Whose job would that be? You don't mean that,
do you? In other words, you would expect someone else to handle
support or questions regarding KDE better than KDE itself?
I don't think you mean that, do you?
Er, I'm a dummy, but not that big a dummy. I've actually spent a lot -
a whole lot - of energy on this matter. I may as well tell you why I
prefer KDE.
- you can put the menubar where it belongs, at the top of the screen!
You can do that within ANY desktop environment, Ted. Really, you can.
It's a matter of accessing the help system of that particular desktop
environment to learn how. That's why the developers of each and every
desktop environment put in their own help system.
- I like Konqueror over Firefox. I like the notion of a web browser
being a file browser. I like the synergy between Apple and khtml.
Konqueror is available as are all the other KDE apps, from within Gnome.
You are not aware perhaps that KDE and Gnome share fundamental
utilities and share underlying technologies regarding their respective
desktop environments?
- I like the way the components integrate, for instance its a snap for
the browser to be integrated within the news aggregator, for the
advanced text editor to contribute to the word processor, for the
raster editor to appear in the spreadsheet. The integration of
applications is just cool (or at least cooler than in Gnome). One
preference pane for every toolbar of every app? Cool.
- The KDE design philosophy seems levelheaded. The Gnome guys really,
really made a mistake, a huge one architecturally with all that CORBA
business, even though it has been discarded now. Now this I know
something about. I know this, I do.
- I'm disgusted by office suites that emulate Microsoft. If I wanted
bad user interface, I'd go where bad is done right, to Office. I come
from a FrameMaker background and am convinced that any useful word
processor will use the frame metaphor. Its a political thing gutwise,
but a practical one too regarding document structure. If you want good
software, you have to support it. Kword. Try it. Everyone reading
this, try it. I'd be willing to bet this exchange ends up with more
converts to KDE than the other way.
- In theory, KDE is along the lines of what you praise YDL as in your
post to Gavin.
Sorry, Ted, I need to correct you here. I didn't praise YDL
exclusively. I praised ALL the Linux projects and distributions asking
that each endeavor be recognized for it's efforts and that each receive
the respect which each has earned, including YDL. A fine point, but an
important one.
It isn't a collection of stuff from all over the place, Mozilla,
OO.org, OMG plus RedHat's business strategy and some multimedia guys
in another logical corner of the world. KDE is an architecture first,
then an integrated set of components, then applications that when
released are guaranteed to work together. Isn't this what you touted?
Its just philosophically more attractive.
Ted! Your a Philosopher! Linux sometimes can be unkind to
philosophers. But wait, there are almost as many distributions now as
there are people! Just kidding...
C'mon, relax....
You do know about tar, downloading and recompiling all sorts of stuff
by now so why stick with the old stuff, if your skills allow you to
be and remain current.
But I don't. I don't have those skills. I may have to develop them if
the YDL community forces me. I'm lazy. I'm looking for what the other
guys have, an easier life. Even quirky PCBSD has a KDE update process.
Ted, Ted. It isn't the YDL community or any one else forcing you to do
anything. As I alluded to earlier, it is the Force or Drive of Living
Life itself.
Call it Evolution. Call it whatever you want... it is relentless and
everywhere. As long as you are a living being, you learn or you
perish. Humanity, almost by definition is about using what it has
learned to survive, build and live to see tomorrow. This drive has
been going on since our ancestors figured out how to use fire to cook
meat and chip rock to make an ax. The development drive such as it is
within Linux is a mirror image of all other human activity.
You are choosing to not learn, not adapt, not use the tools which are
there because they aren't refined enough for you? I can't believe you
are serious.
If I use Linux at all, I'll use KDE (and Emacs and functional
programming). Look, we all make our choices, we all have values that
we want to support. If I go with OS at all, I'll go this way.
My question stands. Is there a way for me to remain current with KDE
on YDL by paying (or any other means)? Is YDL.net of any use in this
regard?
Thanks for the attention.
Best, Ted
Ted, it is possible to have different views and different choices.
Which is why in Linux there's a nearly infinite plethora of options.
Just because the options, help or support, may not be accessible in the
manner you imagine does not mean that in fact it is not there. Each
desktop environment is designed by it's separate project and the best
people who know and provide the help system for that environment are
also from that project. KDE provides for KDE and Gnome provides for
Gnome and so on. That someone is stripping out or could be stripping
out the help systems is absolutely terrible. Or maybe I misunderstood
you completely. Perhaps the help or support systems are within the
desktop environments but you didn't take the time to utilize them, or
learn how to do so? Could it be, you may be imagining functionality
regarding KDE, which does not in fact, exist? Possible? Perhaps the
functionality of Gnome is closer to KDE than what you know, and
certainly in YDL 4.1 they certainly most definitely are a lot closer.
You can check what KDE and Gnome say regarding their collaboration with
one another at their respective sites.
You really must master the help systems provided within the various
desktop environments, because every Linux distribution has the same
challenge. They didn't develop the desktop environment and help system
-- that particular project, however, did.
I fell into that predicament more than once myself. Happens to
everyone in Linux, at least once. As I said earlier, we are all
dummies regarding something.
I believe that your question, as mentioned earlier should be put to TSS
directly. Write them a letter or call, whichever makes best sense to
you. I believe that they are responsible to provide you with the best
KDE package they can acquire at the time the release a particular
version of YDL; it is up to KDE itself to hold up their end. These are
distinctions I'm not sure we see eye to eye on, but that's ok. We are
just participants engaged in a wider question which does deserve
consideration. And because of that consideration I'll attempt to pass
on your question and present whatever I can discover, if anything, on
this thread.
Thanks for forcing my brain cells to fire up...
Sincerely, Derick.
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