As Salemu Aleikum

I don't think this is a forum for debates, but just wanted to clarify
something.

>> Your reasoning that he is the best worshiper because he is the last is
invalid too.

I didn't even know what prompted your email, but then after some thought, I
realized the issue.

If I strung a note that bothered some people, I did not intend to do so,
nor did I notice the issue was related to that.

I was just stating what is clear to me from Islam, and did not take into
account that this could be related to something else.


1) I will try to bridge a gap and explain something, or at least why I said
the above.

The Prophet (SLAWS) was sent as the last Prophet to mankind, and there will
be no more prophets after him, in other words, no more revelation after him.

What is a Prophet? The one who carries the revelation from Allah (SWT).

So if anyone comes after the Prophet, and claims that he has something from
Allah (SWT), then it means he is claiming to have revelation, and thus
Prophet-hood.

Allah (SWT) says:

الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَأَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِي
وَرَ‌ضِيتُ لَكُمُ الْإِسْلَامَ دِينًا
*
This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon
you and have approved for you Islam as religion [5:3]*

In other words, the deen was completed with the Prophet, and there is
nothing after him in terms of revelation, or else it would not be complete.

And he came to perfect and complete the way we worship Allah (SWT), as this
is the way Allah wants us to worship him.

I thought it was a straightforward obvious issue, and I did not think it
would be taking offensively or something by some.

Is anyone better than the Prophet in example and better than the Prophet in
the knowledge of Islam, and this revelation?


3) Quran 2:154 "Never say about those killed in the way of Allah "dead";
nay! They are alive but you cannot feel it"

That is for all the martyrs, whether Prophets or others, but something very
important to also keep in mind, this is part of the knowledge of the unseen.

In other words, we don't and cannot fully grasp what it means exactly, or
else it would not be unseen.

Obviously, the martyrs are buried, and so was the Prophet (SLAWS), and they
do not live or walk among us in the same sense of "alive" as us.

That is all we know about it, and we cannot make any more judgement about
it.

Man can only make a judgement on what he can perceive or is told, and
nothing else.

For example, if I were to ask a person about my car, and how nice it is, or
fast it is without any extra information, and without the person seeing it,
the person would be unable to make a judgement and would be unable to give
me an answer.

If the person were to give me some answer, then it would be complete
guesswork on the person's behalf.

So we cannot build our beliefs based on guesswork.

As Allah (SWT) says:
وَمَا يَتَّبِعُ أَكْثَرُ‌هُمْ إِلَّا ظَنًّا ۚ إِنَّ الظَّنَّ لَا يُغْنِي
مِنَ الْحَقِّ شَيْئًا ۚ إِنَّ اللَّـهَ عَلِيمٌ بِمَا يَفْعَلُونَ
*
And most of them follow not except assumption. Indeed, assumption avails
not against the truth at all. Indeed, Allah is Knowing of what they do.[10:36]
*

We need concrete information to make concrete statements and build a
concrete belief in any matter.

So we know the Martyrs are "alive", since we are told that, but we do not
have any other information in terms of the reality, shape, or form of this
"alive", so we stop here, and don't go building further stuff on something
that is part of the "unseen".


4) >> There is no where in the Quran where Allah swt says about our
Prophet(pbuh+f) is from beni Adam.

I'm sorry, but this one really perplexed me.

We have Angels, Djin, humans, and ??

The Prophet (SLAWS) was from Ibraheem (AS) and Isma'eel (AS), wasn't he?

Wasn't Adam (AS) a Prophet also?

So was Prophet Muhammad (SLAWS) also created without a father and mother?

يَا بَنِي آدَمَ إِمَّا يَأْتِيَنَّكُمْ رُ‌سُلٌ مِّنكُمْ يَقُصُّونَ
عَلَيْكُمْ آيَاتِي ۙ فَمَنِ اتَّقَىٰ وَأَصْلَحَ فَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ
وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

*O children of Adam, if there come to you messengers from among you
relating to you My verses, then whoever fears Allah and reforms - there
will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve. (7:35)
*

5) You pointed out this issue about Mawlaah, which I was trying to get, and
you pointed out the tafsir of al jalaalayn where he says: «على مولاه» وليّ
أمره

First, there are much better tafsirs than jalalayn in terms of the Arabic
language, such as Qurtubi or Ar-Razi, or Shawkaani, etc

Second, I speak and read Arabic, so I was trying to see the problem with
the word, and what brought up the word even, as I did not see the relevance
of it to my first email, as I did not mention anything related to it.

Third, I still don't get it. Mawlaah is just a person in charge of you, and
can be used in many different contexts based on how you use it.

So the tafsir you gave said: «على مولاه» وليّ أمره

Which is correct, no problem, where is the problem?

He is saying, "'upon his mawlaah', viceroy of his affairs"

The same way me and other Arabs understand it, which is someone in charge
of your affairs.

What's the catch?

You mentioned: "Whoever I was mawlaah, this is Ali as mawlaah from now on.
..."

No problem, Ali (may Allah bless him and be pleased with him) was placed in
charge of the Muslim affairs, as was placed others as well, what's the
issue?

Also, I am not getting this Masters part, because mawlah does not mean
"master" specifically, but someone very close to you, have a say over you,
or in charge of your affairs, and can be used in many different contexts.

You have wali, waali, and mawlaah, and they all come from the same root in
Arabic, and have different ways of using them based on context.


6) The verses you mentioned are:
إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّـهُ وَرَ‌سُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ
يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَ‌اكِعُونَ ﴿٥٥﴾ وَمَن
يَتَوَلَّ اللَّـهَ وَرَ‌سُولَهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا فَإِنَّ حِزْبَ اللَّـهِ
هُمُ الْغَالِبُونَ ﴿٥٦﴾
*
Your ally is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who
have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in
worship]. (55) And whoever is an ally of Allah and His Messenger and those
who have believed - indeed, the party of Allah - they will be the
predominant. (56)*

Allah says "waliyukum" (your wali) in the first verse, and not "mawlaakum"
(your mawlaah), and these have different meanings, even if we were to go by
the meaning you gave.

The second verse says "yatawalah" (takes as wali), and the only way it
would mean what you said, if if you are saying that wali and mawlaah mean
the same thing.

They come from the same root, but different usage and different meaning.

The above translation of "ally" is not bad in terms of what I understand
from Arabic and all the old Arabic dictionaries, and what is spoken and
written in all the old and new Arabic books used.

This site is not bad to look into Arabic roots and their meanings from
centuries old dictionaries: http://www.baheth.info

Language is taken from the old Arabs, not the modern ones, as in those to
whom the revelation was sent, as it was sent in their language, so we need
to go back and see how they used it, and the nuances and expressions they
used.

Even if we were to say the word means "master" (which does not make sense
in terms of the context of the verses), and then? What is looked for here?

Those who pray and give zakah are our masters? And then what?

Those who pray and give zakah are our allies? Those are the people I can
count on and trust.


7) I am not forcing you to agree or believe the above, but I gave you how I
always understood the subject.

What you gave does not work linguistically, so there is no reason for me to
think otherwise, as this is just what the Arabic says.

Thus, I cannot agree with you, and if I say I did, I would be lying, and
being a hypocrite.

Would you want me to do that?

Actually, I am more concerned about point 1) and 4), and I would rather
continue any discussion in those.

Wa Aleikum as Salam


On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 12:57 AM, <zekr@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> The Holder of Quran and Traveller of 
> Heavens<#13a1e55eb501fe13_group_thread_0>[1 Update]
>
>
>   The Holder of Quran and Traveller of 
> Heavens<http://groups.google.com/group/zekr/t/82bc7c3ff9448c30>
>
>    Ali Adams <purepri...@yahoo.com> Sep 30 03:57PM -0700
>
>    What you failed to realize are two things:
>
>    1) The Prophet(pbuh+f) and his progeny are still alive but you cannot
>    FEEL it
>    Quran 2:154 "Never say about those killed in the way of Allah "dead";
>    nay! They are alive but you cannot feel it"
>
>    2) The Prophet(pbuh+f) is basher (made from clay) but not all basher
>    come from Adam (as). There is no where in the Quran where Allah swt says
>    about our Prophet(pbuh+f) is from beni Adam. On the contrary, Allah talks
>    down Adam and Man in general (3ajoola, dhalooma, etc) whereas Allah swt
>    says about our Prophet(pbuh+f) is MERCY to all the Universes.
>
>    Your reasoning that he is the best worshiper because he is the last is
>    invalid too.
>
>    And the same goes to all 12 Imams from Ali to Mehdi as our wali
>    (masters) as in 5:55, 5:56 and 16:76
>
>    16:76 And Allah coineth a similitude: Two men, one of them dumb,
>    having control of nothing, and he is a burden on his owner; whithersoever
>    he directeth him to go, he bringeth no good. Is he equal with one who
>    enjoineth justice and followeth a straight path (of conduct)?
>
>    16:76 And Allah presents an example of two men, one of them dumb and
>    unable to do a thing, while he is a burden to his guardian. Wherever he
>    directs him, he brings no good. Is he equal to one who commands justice,
>    while he is on a straight path?
>
>    Here is Tafseer Al-Jalalain for you too:
>    16:76 «وضرب الله مثلاً» ويبدل منه «رجلين أحدهما أبكم» ولد أخرس «لا
>    يقدر على شيء» لأنه لا يفهم ولا يُفهم «وهو كلّ» ثقيل «على مولاه» وليّ أمره
>    «أينما يوجهه» يصرفه «لا يأت» منه «بخير» ينجح وهذا مثل الكافر «هل يستوي هو»
>    أي الأبكم المذكور «ومن يأمر بالعدل» أي ومن هو ناطق نافع للناس حيث يأمر به
>    ويحث عليه «وهو على صراط» طريق «مستقيم» وهو الثاني المؤمن؟ لا، وقيل هذا مثل
>    الله، والأبكم للأصنام والذي قبله مثل الكافر والمؤمن.
>
>
>    Allah SWT has used the word "mawlaah" in this verse and His Prophet
>    (pbuh+f) used the same word when he raised Ali's hand and said:
>    "Whoever I was mawlaah, this is Ali as mawlaah from now on. ..."
>
>    5:55 Your masters are
>    1) Allah,
>    2) His Prophet, and
>    3) those believers who establish prayer and pay zakat while bowing
>    down in prayer.
>
>    5:56 Anyone takes Allah, His Prophet and those believers as their
>    masters, know that the Party of Allah are triumphant.
>
>    This is the recipe of Allah for success and 5:55 and 5:56 are not
>    limited to Imam Ali (as) only because Allah swt used plural (والذين ءامنوا)
>    deliberately which has 12 letters as a hint of their number. The 12 Imams
>    peace be upon them all.
>
>    Salawaaaaaaaaaaaaaat upon Muhammad his progeny.
>
>    Ali Adams
>    God > infinity
>    www.heliwave.com
>
>
>    ----- Original Message -----
>    From: "Ramaddan" <2ama...@gmail.com>
>    To: zekr@googlegroups.com
>    Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2012 7:56:31 AM
>    Subject: [zekr] Re: The Holder of Quran and Traveller of Heavens
>
>
>    As Salemu Aleikum
>
>    >> and The One for Whom the Entire Existence is made and On Whom He
>    The Allah recites Darood
>
>    I love the Prophet, like all Muslims, but the above statement is
>    problematic.
>
>    Allah (SWT) says:
>    وَمَا خَلَقْتُ الْجِنَّ وَالْإِنسَ إِلَّا لِيَعْبُدُونِ
>
>    And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me.
>    (51:56)
>
>    In other words, the entire existence was made to worship Allah (SWT),
>    and it was not made for Muhammad (SLAWS).
>
>    Our great Prophet Muhammad (SLAWS) himself was a great worshipper of
>    Allah, and he is part of the creation that was created to worship Allah
>    (SWT).
>
>    Our Prophet (SLAWS) perfected this worship to Allah better than the
>    rest of humanity, as he was the last Prophet to mankind.
>
>    The world is still around after our beloved Prophet (SLAWS) left, and
>    the world is still worshipping Allah (SWT), fulfilling the message and
>    legacy he (SLAWS) came with.
>
>    And Allah (SWT) says:
>    لِلَّـهِ مُلْكُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْ‌ضِ وَمَا فِيهِنَّ ۚ وَهُوَ
>    عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ‌
>
>    To Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and
>    whatever is within them. And He is over all things competent. (5:120)
>
>    I love Muhammad [SLAWS], and I love Allah (SWT) more, and this world
>    was made to praise Him (SWT), Allah (the creator), and to frame it any
>    other way is to not give Allah His due.
>
>    فَسُبْحَانَ اللَّـهِ حِينَ تُمْسُونَ وَحِينَ تُصْبِحُونَ - وَلَهُ
>    الْحَمْدُ فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْ‌ضِ وَعَشِيًّا وَحِينَ تُظْهِرُ‌ونَ
>
>    So exalt Allah when you reach the evening and when you reach the
>    morning. - And to Him is [due all] praise throughout the heavens and the
>    earth. And at night and when you are at noon. [30:17-18]
>
>    Wa Aleikum as Salam
>
>
>
>    On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 12:48 AM, < zekr@googlegroups.com > wrote:
>
>
>    The Holder of Quran and Traveller of Heavens [1 Update]
>
>
>    The Holder of Quran and Traveller of Heavens
>
>    Syed Muhammad Ayub Shah < agha_a...@yahoo.co.uk > Sep 29 06:12AM +0100
>    MOHAMMAD Assalam-o-Alaikum, wa-Rahmat-Ullah,
>    wa-Assalat-U-wassalam-o-Ala-Rasool Allah, Please recite Darood on the
>    Holiest and Superior of all the creations and Next in authority to the Most
>    Beneficent and Mighty Creator Allah alone, The last of all the messengers,
>    The last of all the Prophets, The Holder of All the Miracles, The cause of
>    all the Creations, The Allah's Loved One, The 'MOHAMMAD'
>    (Sallallah-o-Alaihe-Waalehi-Wasalam). No Defamation can be caused to the
>    Ones Whom Allah Loves and The One for Whom the Entire Existence is made and
>    On Whom He The Allah recites Darood. A file containing humble words in the
>    Great Honor of The Traveler of Heavens, The Magnificent and Prestigious
>    Self Hood and Great Prophet Hood The 'MOHAMMAD' Rasool Allah
>    (Sallallah-o-Alaihe-Wa-Alehi-Wasalm), is uploaded for worthy reading,
>    please. with Profoundest Regards, Agha Syed Muhammad Ayub Shah Bukhari
>    Tel : (Cell) : +92 - 321 - 537 - 1193
>
>
>
>
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