Edgar,

>From a zen perspective is not all this conceptualization unnecessary,
(like 'adding legs to a snake'?)

--Ed



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgaro...@...> wrote:
>
> JMJM,
>
> An excellent description of the impermanent nature of forms and thus
their illusory nature with which I am in agreement. Forms come and go as
manifestations of the underlying substance, but the underlying substance
is itself unchangeable.
>
> Thanks,
> Edgar



> On Oct 5, 2010, at 4:41 PM, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明
wrote:
>
> > If I may jump in here about these important subject matter...
> >
> > DP asked an excellent question about the nature of illusion. Edgar
answered as "chi/tao manifested itself through varius forms of illusion.
"
> >
> > If I may elaborate further...
> >
> > In Chan, we don't use the term "illusion". You may notice so in all
my posts for the last 7/8 years. Chan is defined as the universal life
force and wisdom. Edgar called it Tao. Others called it God. Scientists
call it Big Ban.
> >
> > This universal life force, or universal chi for short, manifested
everything - planets, air, water, earth, human, trees, flowers - we
label them as forms. This universal chi, or mother nature, supports
every form in a harmonious way, though every form eventually disappears
from our senses. We describe these disappearances as illusive or
impermanent.
> >
> > Therefore, our body, our mind, our thoughts, our words, are all
forms, all impermanent, all relative, and all illusive.
> >
> > Meaning the concept of illusion itself is illusive...
> >
> > Then, what is reality? how to experience it?
> >
> > Chan teaches, "detach from all forms and be in sync with the
universal chi."
> >
> > If I may add, "all forms" includes our thoughts, judgments,
analysis, understanding, etc. as well as this post of mine.
> >
> > JMJM
> > Head Teacher
> > Order of Buddha Heart
> > Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
> > http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
> > http://www.heartchan.org <http://www.heartchan.org>



> > On 10/5/2010 4:22 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:

> >> Chris and Bill,
> >>
> >>
> >> Sure but you both miss my point. My point is that you must use the
intelligent mind to reach the point where things happen naturally via
the whole being.
> >>
> >> A great martial artist doesn't intellectualize each move but his
Zen-like responses are the results of years of study and training
involving a great deal of intelligent study and physical training. Same
with recognizing illusions for what they are. That is immediate not
intellectual experience, but only done properly after intense
intelligent analysis of the nature of illusion.
> >>
> >> Remember Zen is simply experiencing reality. The ONLY thing that
stands in the way is the illusions which seem real but aren't. So the
essence of Zen is simply recognizing illusion for what it is. Not so
much getting rid of illusions (some can be got rid of some can't) but
recognizing illusion as illusion. That is experiencing reality since
reality consists entirely of ontological energy (chi, Tao) manifesting
through the various forms of illusion.
> >>
> >> Edgar



> >> On Oct 4, 2010, at 10:19 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote:
> >>
> >>> When you swim well, your intelligence is not separate from your
action, but indivisible. At that point the things you could think about
swimming, things you read in books, are not necessary to think. The
intelligence is there in the action.
> >>>
> >>> All these words about thoughts vs perceptions seem to have a
viewpoint of analysis. To analyse without the view point of analysing,
you swim, answer questions about swimming, give explanations of
swimming, all without leaving the spot.


> >>>> Edgar,
> >>>>
> >>>> As usual I agree with some of what you say but not all.
> >>>>
> >>>> The part I agree with is that zen is not anti anything.
I’d say if anything it’s anti-attachments. I myself winced
when I sent the post affirming that zen is anti-intellectual.
It’s not.
> >>>>
> >>>> The part I disagree with you is about the role of intelligence in
zen. Intelligence is not necessary to realize Buddha Mind, only sensory
experience.
> >>>>
> >>>> Intelligence (rationality) like all illusions can be benign. The
important thing is to discard your attachment to intelligence or any
other illusion. Intelligence can be used, as you have said, to help
orient you in the beginning - but it is not necessary. You can gain
information about most anything with your intelligence â€" like
reading books or even listening to others talk.
> >>>>
> >>>> Intelligence can be used to learn to swim or ride a bike. You can
get a general idea of what it is you are supposed to do, but to actually
swim you have to get into the water or onto the bike and throw the book
away. What you have learned using your intelligence might help you then,
or it might hinder you. These are functions your body has to learn, not
your rational mind.
> >>>>
> >>>> It’s the same with zen.
> >>>>
> >>>> …Bill!



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