Edgar, 

For some reason your mails are coming to me garbled. 

For me, I have not been as able to notice when the point of action occurring 
naturally as much from intellectual activity as from zazen.  

Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone
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> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 07:22:08 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Bible, God, etc.
> Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
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> 
> Chris and Bill,
> 
> Sure but you both miss my point. My point is that you must use the intellig=
> ent mind to reach the point where things happen naturally via the whole bei=
> ng.
> 
> A great martial artist doesn't intellectualize each move but his Zen-like r=
> esponses are the results of years of study and training involving a great d=
> eal of intelligent study and physical training. Same with recognizing illus=
> ions for what they are. That is immediate not intellectual experience, but =
> only done properly after intense intelligent analysis of the nature of illu=
> sion.
> 
> Remember Zen is simply experiencing reality. The ONLY thing that stands in =
> the way is the illusions which seem real but aren't. So the essence of Zen =
> is simply recognizing illusion for what it is. Not so much getting rid of i=
> llusions (some can be got rid of some can't) but recognizing illusion as il=
> lusion. That is experiencing reality since reality consists entirely of ont=
> ological energy (chi, Tao) manifesting through the various forms of illusio=
> n.
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Oct 4, 2010, at 10:19 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote:
> 
>> =20
>> When you swim well, your intelligence is not separate from your action, b=
> ut indivisible. At that point the things you could think about swimming, th=
> ings you read in books, are not necessary to think. The intelligence is the=
> re in the action.
>> =20
>> All these words about thoughts vs perceptions seem to have a viewpoint of=
> analysis. To analyse without the view point of analysing, you swim, answer=
> questions about swimming, give explanations of swimming, all without leavi=
> ng the spot.
>> =20
>> =20
>>> On Oct 4, 2010 6:02 PM, <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> Edgar,
>>> =20
>>> As usual I agree with some of what you say but not all.
>>> =20
>>> The part I agree with is that zen is not anti anything.  I=92d say if an=
> ything it=92s anti-attachments.  I myself winced when I sent the post affir=
> ming that zen is anti-intellectual.  It=92s not.
>>> =20
>>> The part I disagree with you is about the role of intelligence in zen.  =
> Intelligence is not necessary to realize Buddha Mind, only sensory experien=
> ce.
>>> =20
>>> Intelligence (rationality) like all illusions can be benign.  The import=
> ant thing is to discard your attachment to intelligence or any other illusi=
> on.  Intelligence can be used, as you have said, to help orient you in the =
> beginning - but it is not necessary.  You can gain information about most a=
> nything with your intelligence =96 like reading books or even listening to =
> others talk.
>>> =20
>>> Intelligence can be used to learn to swim or ride a bike.  You can get a=
> general idea of what it is you are supposed to do, but to actually swim yo=
> u have to get into the water or onto the bike and throw the book away.  Wha=
> t you have learned using your intelligence might help you then, or it might=
> hinder you.  These are functions your body has to learn, not your rational=
> mind.
>>> =20
>>> It=92s the same with zen.=20
>>> =20
>>> =85Bill!
>>> =20
>>> =20=20
>>> From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Be=
> half Of Edgar Owen
>>> Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 4:53 PM
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
>>> =20
>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] Bible, God, etc.
>>> =20
>>> =20=20
>>> =20=20=20
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> Nonsense. Zen is not anti anything except perhaps illusion.=20
>>> =20
>>> =20=20
>>> =20
>>> Intelligence is absolutely necess...
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signa=
> ture database 5503 (20101004) __________
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>> =20
>>> http://www.eset.com
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signa=
> ture database 5503 (20101004) __________
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>> =20
>>> http://www.eset.com
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>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are=
> reading! Talk about it t...
>>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
> 
> 
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> 
> Chris and Bill,<div><br></div><div>Sure but you both miss my point. My poin=
> t is that you must use the intelligent mind to reach the point where things=
> happen naturally via the whole being.</div><div><br></div><div>A great mar=
> tial artist doesn't intellectualize each move but his Zen-like responses ar=
> e the results of years of study and training involving a great deal of inte=
> lligent study and physical training. Same with recognizing illusions for wh=
> at they are. That is immediate not intellectual experience, but only done p=
> roperly after intense intelligent analysis of the nature of illusion.</div>=
> <div><br></div><div>Remember Zen is simply experiencing reality. The ONLY t=
> hing that stands in the way is the illusions which seem real but aren't. So=
> the essence of Zen is simply recognizing illusion for what it is. Not so m=
> uch getting rid of illusions (some can be got rid of some can't) but recogn=
> izing illusion as illusion. That is experiencing reality since reality cons=
> ists entirely of ontological energy (chi, Tao) manifesting through the vari=
> ous forms of illusion.</div><div><br></div><div>Edgar</div><div><br></div><=
> div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Oct 4, 2010, at 10:19 PM=
> , Chris Austin-Lane wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><bl=
> ockquote type=3D"cite">
> 
> 
> 
> <div style=3D"background-color: #fff;">
> <span style=3D"display:none">&nbsp;</span>
> 
> 
> 
>    <div id=3D"ygrp-text"><div><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div=
>> <p>When you swim well, your intelligence is not separate from your action,=
> but indivisible. At that point the things you could think about swimming, =
> things you read in books, are not necessary to think. The intelligence is t=
> here in the action. </p><p>All these words about thoughts vs perceptions se=
> em to have a viewpoint of analysis. To analyse without the view point of an=
> alysing, you swim, answer questions about swimming, give explanations of sw=
> imming, all without leaving the spot. </p><div><br class=3D"webkit-block-pl=
> aceholder"></div><blockquote type=3D"cite">On Oct 4, 2010 6:02 PM,  &lt;<a =
> href=3D"mailto:billsm...@hhs1963.org";>billsm...@hhs1963.org</a>&gt; wrote:<=
> br><br>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#1E66AE" vlink=3D"#1E66AE">
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <br><br>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"=
>> Edgar,</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;co=
> lor:#1F497D;">As usual I agree with some of what you say but not all.</span=
>> </p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"=
>> The part I agree with is that zen is not anti anything.&nbsp;
> I=92d say if anything it=92s anti-attachments.&nbsp; I myself winced when I=
> sent
> the post affirming that zen is anti-intellectual.&nbsp; It=92s not.</span><=
> /p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">T=
> he part I disagree with you is about the role of intelligence
> in zen.&nbsp; Intelligence is not necessary to realize Buddha Mind, only se=
> nsory
> experience.</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0p=
> t;color:#1F497D;">Intelligence (rationality) like all illusions can be
> benign.&nbsp; The important thing is to discard your attachment to intellig=
> ence
> or any other illusion.&nbsp; Intelligence can be used, as you have said, to=
> help
> orient you in the beginning - but it is not necessary.&nbsp; You can gain
> information about most anything with your intelligence =96 like reading boo=
> ks or
> even listening to others talk.</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
> =3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">Intelligence can be used to learn to s=
> wim or ride a bike.&nbsp; You
> can get a general idea of what it is you are supposed to do, but to actuall=
> y
> swim you have to get into the water or onto the bike and throw the book awa=
> y.&nbsp; What
> you have learned using your intelligence might help you then, or it might
> hinder you.&nbsp; These are functions your body has to learn, not your rati=
> onal
> mind.</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;colo=
> r:#1F497D;">It=92s the same with zen.&nbsp; </span></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
> l"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">=85Bill! </span></p><div=
>> <span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"=
> webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
> 
> <div style=3D"border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;">
> 
> <div>
> 
> <div style=3D"border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><s=
> pan style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10=
> .0pt;">
> <a href=3D"mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com"; target=3D"_blank">zen_fo...@ya=
> hoogroups.com</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com"; targ=
> et=3D"_blank">Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Edgar
> Owen<br>
> <b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 04, 2010 4:53 PM</span></p><p><font color=3D"#=
> 500050"><br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com";>zen_fo...@yaho=
> ogroups.com</a></font></p><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Zen] Bible, God, etc.<div><b=
> r class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
> 
> </div>
> 
> </div><div>&nbsp;<br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>&nbsp; <=
> br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
> 
> <div><p><font color=3D"#500050"><br><br>Nonsense. Zen is not anti anything =
> except perhaps illusion.&nbsp;<br><br>&nbsp;<br><br>Intelligence is absolut=
> ely necess...</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
> <br>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signatur=
> e
> database 5503 (20101004) __________</p><p><font color=3D"#500050"><br><br>T=
> he message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.<br><br><a href=3D"http://ww=
> w.eset.com/">http://www.eset.com</a></font></p><div><br class=3D"webkit-blo=
> ck-placeholder"></div>
> 
> </div>
> 
> <br><br>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus=
> signature database 5503 (20101004) __________<p><font color=3D"#500050"><b=
> r><br>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.<br><br><a href=3D"ht=
> tp://www.eset.com/">http://www.eset.com</a><br>
> <br><br></font></p></div><p><font color=3D"#500050"><br><br><br>Current Boo=
> k Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk=
> about it t...</font></p></div>
> </div>
> 
> 
> </blockquote><div><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><br cla=
> ss=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
> 
>    </div>
> =20=20=20=20=20
> 
> =20=20=20=20
> 
> </div>
> 
> 
> 
> <!-- end group email -->
> 
> </blockquote></div><br></div>
> 
> 
> 
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