Edgar, For some reason your mails are coming to me garbled.
For me, I have not been as able to notice when the point of action occurring naturally as much from intellectual activity as from zazen. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone > CM SPAM detection: spam > References: <[email protected]> > <[email protected]> <000601cb6371$24a10de0$6de329...@org> > <[email protected]> > <000e01cb6428$d25079f0$76f16d...@org> > <[email protected]> > <[email protected]> > <[email protected]> > X-Originating-IP: 167.206.4.198 > From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]> > X-Yahoo-Profile: edgarowen > Sender: [email protected] > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Mailing-List: list [email protected]; contact > [email protected] > Delivered-To: mailing list [email protected] > List-Id: <Zen_Forum.yahoogroups.com> > Precedence: bulk > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:[email protected]> > Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 07:22:08 -0400 > Subject: Re: [Zen] Bible, God, etc. > Reply-To: [email protected] > X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email-tradh-m > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="Boundary_(ID_IyZ6fRyNJwK9PZbKjrmqPg)" > > --Boundary_(ID_IyZ6fRyNJwK9PZbKjrmqPg) > Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable > > Chris and Bill, > > Sure but you both miss my point. My point is that you must use the intellig= > ent mind to reach the point where things happen naturally via the whole bei= > ng. > > A great martial artist doesn't intellectualize each move but his Zen-like r= > esponses are the results of years of study and training involving a great d= > eal of intelligent study and physical training. Same with recognizing illus= > ions for what they are. That is immediate not intellectual experience, but = > only done properly after intense intelligent analysis of the nature of illu= > sion. > > Remember Zen is simply experiencing reality. The ONLY thing that stands in = > the way is the illusions which seem real but aren't. So the essence of Zen = > is simply recognizing illusion for what it is. Not so much getting rid of i= > llusions (some can be got rid of some can't) but recognizing illusion as il= > lusion. That is experiencing reality since reality consists entirely of ont= > ological energy (chi, Tao) manifesting through the various forms of illusio= > n. > > Edgar > > > > > On Oct 4, 2010, at 10:19 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: > >> =20 >> When you swim well, your intelligence is not separate from your action, b= > ut indivisible. At that point the things you could think about swimming, th= > ings you read in books, are not necessary to think. The intelligence is the= > re in the action. >> =20 >> All these words about thoughts vs perceptions seem to have a viewpoint of= > analysis. To analyse without the view point of analysing, you swim, answer= > questions about swimming, give explanations of swimming, all without leavi= > ng the spot. >> =20 >> =20 >>> On Oct 4, 2010 6:02 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> Edgar, >>> =20 >>> As usual I agree with some of what you say but not all. >>> =20 >>> The part I agree with is that zen is not anti anything. I=92d say if an= > ything it=92s anti-attachments. I myself winced when I sent the post affir= > ming that zen is anti-intellectual. It=92s not. >>> =20 >>> The part I disagree with you is about the role of intelligence in zen. = > Intelligence is not necessary to realize Buddha Mind, only sensory experien= > ce. >>> =20 >>> Intelligence (rationality) like all illusions can be benign. The import= > ant thing is to discard your attachment to intelligence or any other illusi= > on. Intelligence can be used, as you have said, to help orient you in the = > beginning - but it is not necessary. You can gain information about most a= > nything with your intelligence =96 like reading books or even listening to = > others talk. >>> =20 >>> Intelligence can be used to learn to swim or ride a bike. You can get a= > general idea of what it is you are supposed to do, but to actually swim yo= > u have to get into the water or onto the bike and throw the book away. Wha= > t you have learned using your intelligence might help you then, or it might= > hinder you. These are functions your body has to learn, not your rational= > mind. >>> =20 >>> It=92s the same with zen.=20 >>> =20 >>> =85Bill! >>> =20 >>> =20=20 >>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Be= > half Of Edgar Owen >>> Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 4:53 PM >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> To: [email protected] >>> =20 >>> Subject: Re: [Zen] Bible, God, etc. >>> =20 >>> =20=20 >>> =20=20=20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> Nonsense. Zen is not anti anything except perhaps illusion.=20 >>> =20 >>> =20=20 >>> =20 >>> Intelligence is absolutely necess... >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signa= > ture database 5503 (20101004) __________ >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> =20 >>> http://www.eset.com >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signa= > ture database 5503 (20101004) __________ >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> =20 >>> http://www.eset.com >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are= > reading! Talk about it t... >>> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 > > > --Boundary_(ID_IyZ6fRyNJwK9PZbKjrmqPg) > Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > > <head> > > <style type=3D"text/css"> > <!-- > > /* start of attachment style */ > .ygrp-photo-title{ > clear: both; > font-size: smaller; > height: 15px; > overflow: hidden; > text-align: center; > width: 75px; > } > div.ygrp-photo{ > background-position: center; > background-repeat: no-repeat; > background-color: white; > border: 1px solid black; > height: 62px; > width: 62px; > } > > div.photo-title=20 > a, > div.photo-title a:active, > div.photo-title a:hover, > div.photo-title a:visited { > text-decoration: none;=20 > } > > div.attach-table div.attach-row { > clear: both; > } > > div.attach-table div.attach-row div { > float: left; > /* margin: 2px;*/ > } > > p { > clear: both; > padding: 15px 0 3px 0; > overflow: hidden; > } > > div.ygrp-file { > width: 30px; > valign: middle; > } > div.attach-table div.attach-row div div a { > text-decoration: none; > } > > div.attach-table div.attach-row div div span { > font-weight: normal; > } > > div.ygrp-file-title { > font-weight: bold; > } > /* end of attachment style */ > --> > </style> > </head> > <html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:= > space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "> > > > <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> > > <br><br> > > <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> > > > Chris and Bill,<div><br></div><div>Sure but you both miss my point. My poin= > t is that you must use the intelligent mind to reach the point where things= > happen naturally via the whole being.</div><div><br></div><div>A great mar= > tial artist doesn't intellectualize each move but his Zen-like responses ar= > e the results of years of study and training involving a great deal of inte= > lligent study and physical training. Same with recognizing illusions for wh= > at they are. That is immediate not intellectual experience, but only done p= > roperly after intense intelligent analysis of the nature of illusion.</div>= > <div><br></div><div>Remember Zen is simply experiencing reality. The ONLY t= > hing that stands in the way is the illusions which seem real but aren't. So= > the essence of Zen is simply recognizing illusion for what it is. Not so m= > uch getting rid of illusions (some can be got rid of some can't) but recogn= > izing illusion as illusion. That is experiencing reality since reality cons= > ists entirely of ontological energy (chi, Tao) manifesting through the vari= > ous forms of illusion.</div><div><br></div><div>Edgar</div><div><br></div><= > div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Oct 4, 2010, at 10:19 PM= > , Chris Austin-Lane wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><bl= > ockquote type=3D"cite"> > > > > <div style=3D"background-color: #fff;"> > <span style=3D"display:none"> </span> > > > > <div id=3D"ygrp-text"><div><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div= >> <p>When you swim well, your intelligence is not separate from your action,= > but indivisible. At that point the things you could think about swimming, = > things you read in books, are not necessary to think. The intelligence is t= > here in the action. </p><p>All these words about thoughts vs perceptions se= > em to have a viewpoint of analysis. To analyse without the view point of an= > alysing, you swim, answer questions about swimming, give explanations of sw= > imming, all without leaving the spot. </p><div><br class=3D"webkit-block-pl= > aceholder"></div><blockquote type=3D"cite">On Oct 4, 2010 6:02 PM, <<a = > href=3D"mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a>> wrote:<= > br><br> > > > > > > > =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 > > > > > > > > > > > > > <div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#1E66AE" vlink=3D"#1E66AE"> > > > > > <br><br> > > > > > > > <div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"= >> Edgar,</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;co= > lor:#1F497D;">As usual I agree with some of what you say but not all.</span= >> </p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"= >> The part I agree with is that zen is not anti anything. > I=92d say if anything it=92s anti-attachments. I myself winced when I= > sent > the post affirming that zen is anti-intellectual. It=92s not.</span><= > /p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">T= > he part I disagree with you is about the role of intelligence > in zen. Intelligence is not necessary to realize Buddha Mind, only se= > nsory > experience.</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0p= > t;color:#1F497D;">Intelligence (rationality) like all illusions can be > benign. The important thing is to discard your attachment to intellig= > ence > or any other illusion. Intelligence can be used, as you have said, to= > help > orient you in the beginning - but it is not necessary. You can gain > information about most anything with your intelligence =96 like reading boo= > ks or > even listening to others talk.</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style= > =3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">Intelligence can be used to learn to s= > wim or ride a bike. You > can get a general idea of what it is you are supposed to do, but to actuall= > y > swim you have to get into the water or onto the bike and throw the book awa= > y. What > you have learned using your intelligence might help you then, or it might > hinder you. These are functions your body has to learn, not your rati= > onal > mind.</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;colo= > r:#1F497D;">It=92s the same with zen. </span></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma= > l"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;">=85Bill! </span></p><div= >> <span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D;"> </span><br class=3D"= > webkit-block-placeholder"></div> > > <div style=3D"border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;"> > > <div> > > <div style=3D"border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><s= > pan style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10= > .0pt;"> > <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"; target=3D"_blank">zen_fo...@ya= > hoogroups.com</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"; targ= > et=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Edgar > Owen<br> > <b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 04, 2010 4:53 PM</span></p><p><font color=3D"#= > 500050"><br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]";>zen_fo...@yaho= > ogroups.com</a></font></p><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Zen] Bible, God, etc.<div><b= > r class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div> > > </div> > > </div><div> <br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div> <= > br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div> > > <div><p><font color=3D"#500050"><br><br>Nonsense. Zen is not anti anything = > except perhaps illusion. <br><br> <br><br>Intelligence is absolut= > ely necess...</font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br> > <br> > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signatur= > e > database 5503 (20101004) __________</p><p><font color=3D"#500050"><br><br>T= > he message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.<br><br><a href=3D"http://ww= > w.eset.com/">http://www.eset.com</a></font></p><div><br class=3D"webkit-blo= > ck-placeholder"></div> > > </div> > > <br><br>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus= > signature database 5503 (20101004) __________<p><font color=3D"#500050"><b= > r><br>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.<br><br><a href=3D"ht= > tp://www.eset.com/">http://www.eset.com</a><br> > <br><br></font></p></div><p><font color=3D"#500050"><br><br><br>Current Boo= > k Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk= > about it t...</font></p></div> > </div> > > > </blockquote><div><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><br cla= > ss=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div> > > </div> > =20=20=20=20=20 > > =20=20=20=20 > > </div> > > > > <!-- end group email --> > > </blockquote></div><br></div> > > > > <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> > > <br> > > =20=20=20=20 > =20=20=20=20 > <br> > > <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> > > > <div width=3D"1" style=3D"color: white; clear: both;"/></div> > </body></html> > --Boundary_(ID_IyZ6fRyNJwK9PZbKjrmqPg)-- ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! 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