Edgar,
 
Can I summarize our as follows?
 
Anthony, 'does a bridge flow?.;
Edgar, 'yes, everything is like water.'
Anthony, 'but Joshu says the water stops.'
Edgar, 'to understand me, you got to have a minimum of 40 IQ. Yours is only 20, 
Joshu is worse at 19.9. So both of you don't qualify.'
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 7/10/10, Edgar Owen <edgaro...@att.net> wrote:


From: Edgar Owen <edgaro...@att.net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Unclear on what is mind
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 7 October, 2010, 7:59 AM


  



Yes, I answered it yesterday. But like water it has flowed away now! :-)


Edgar







On Oct 6, 2010, at 7:46 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:


  






Edgar,
 
You have not answered my question about the statement:
 
When you cross the bridge, the water underneath stops, but the bridge flows.
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 7/10/10, Edgar Owen <edgaro...@att.net> wrote:


From: Edgar Owen <edgaro...@att.net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Unclear on what is mind
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 7 October, 2010, 7:24 AM


  

Anthony, 


Everything 'has' Buddha nature because Buddha nature or Tao/chi/ontological 
energy is the single only substance of the universe, of reality. There is 
nothing else other than Buddha nature that exists. The question is who realizes 
the Buddha nature reality of the world. In a sense all animals do because they 
relate more directly to reality with less thinking in between themselves and 
reality. Humans as a species are perhaps least likely to realize their Buddha 
nature than any other species. Why? Because they insist in thinking and talking 
and posting about Zen rather than living it...


Edgar




 


On Oct 6, 2010, at 6:15 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:


  






Bill,
 
I have an IQ of 20. What should I do?
 
Do dogs have Buddha Nature? Get ready to get a slap from Joshu.
 
Anthony

--- On Wed, 6/10/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Unclear on what is mind
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 6 October, 2010, 6:51 PM


  



Kristy,
You ask a good question, and of course I don’t have good answers to really good 
questions.
>From my experience in zen I think any being that has SOME form of sensory 
>awareness – a sentient being – has Buddha Nature.  The West (and I think the 
>East also) divides the senses into 5 senses – sight, hearing, touch, smell and 
>taste.  Of course we in the West especially divide EVERYTHING into fragments.  
>That’s a big part of Western rationalization, especially of science.  We think 
>that if we break things down into pieces, and the pieces become simple enough 
>that we can ‘understand’ the pieces, we will then be able to ‘understand’ the 
>whole.
Back to the senses…  From my experience in zen I think the division of senses 
into sight, hearing, etc…, is a meaningless exercise, because when you are only 
aware of sensory experience (Buddha Nature) there is no differentiation between 
sight, hearing, etc… , no duality.  It’s all Just THIS!  So, I think people 
(beings) that are blind or deaf or both still can experience ONLY awareness 
(Buddha Nature), and in fact (this is just wild SPECUALTION on my part) MAYBE  
can become only aware of sensory experience (Buddha Nature) more easily than 
someone who has all their senses. 
I’ve also thought this about people who have very low intelligence – like an IQ 
of 40 or lower.  Surely we can’t say they do not also have Buddha Nature, or 
that they because they aren’t very smart, will never be able to experience 
Buddha Nature.  I just don’t think it works like this.  That very fact leads me 
to conclude that intelligence is not a factor when it comes to experiencing 
Buddha Nature. 
And then this could be extended to non-humans – to animals.  Do animals (like a 
dog) have Buddha Nature?  I think I’ve heard about someone asking that before 
;>).  Dogs are sentient beings, so why not?  Yet their intelligence is nothing 
compared to a human. 
And how about plants? 
Of course what I’m doing here is dividing the Whole into an increasingly larger 
number of groups.  That’s discrimination.  That’s rationalization.  That’s 
creating dualisms.  That’s the one thing that our discriminating mind does, and 
that’s the main thing that takes us AWAY from realizing the Whole, the One, 
Buddha Nature.  And it is in that sense that I believe zen is anti-intellect, 
or at least intellect-neutral.  It is still my opinion at least that the 
intellect plays absolutely NO PART in discovering Buddha Nature, and if it does 
it’s usually a detrimental role, not a helping role, and certainly not an 
essential role. 
…Bill! 
  



From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Kristy McClain
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 7:50 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Unclear on what is mind
  
  








Bill,

 

Well, I am going to assume by this that you mean what we experience with our 
physical senses. (Eye, ear, smell, taste, touch).   So from that view, a Hellen 
Keller or an autistic child or  such cannot , by definition, practice zen as 
well as you?  Or are you saying that we each have a unique awareness based on 
our sensory perception? 

 

Also, why spend time debating issues here? Is that not  an illusion as well-- 
existing as a  distraction from a purer awareness;)

 

Kristy 

 

 



--- On Sun, 10/3/10, Bill! <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:


From: Bill! <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: [Zen] Re: Unclear on what is mind
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, October 3, 2010, 10:38 PM 

  


Good Morning Kristy,

No, I didn't mean to suggest that qualities such as compassion, wisdom and 
equanimity arise from sensory awareness. Such concepts as these arise from your 
dualistic, rational mind. This is the mind on which DP is unclear and is 
worried about loosing. This mind is the source of all illusions, the most 
fundamental of which is the illusion of 'self'; but these illusions also 
include all concepts (definitions/names) and judgements.

The zen I practice consists ONLY of awareness of sensory experience. Nothing 
more. I call this 'Just THIS!'. It could also be called 'Buddha Mind' or 'the 
cypress tree in the garden' or (in my opinion the best of all) 'Mu!'.

EVERYTHING ELSE you may conceive of such as self/other, compassion/selfishness, 
wisdom/ignorance, good/bad, etc..., are illusory.

What I am suggesting is Just THIS!

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain <healthypl...@...> wrote:
>
> Good Morning Bill, (well--its morning where I am),
>  
> Okay, this is one of the hairs I split with you about   what zen is or 
> isn't. I agree that our  sensory experiences are key, and it is the 
> mindful awareness of same which serve as a foundation, but compassion, 
> wisdom ,  equanimity are also part of my practice. 
>  
> Are you suggesting that these other qualities arise from sensory  
> awareness?  
>  
> Kristy 
> 
> 
> --- On Sun, 10/3/10, billsm...@... <billsm...@...> wrote:
> 
> 
> From: billsm...@... <billsm...@...>
> Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Unclear on what is mind
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, October 3, 2010, 4:15 AM
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DP,
>  
> In my opinion zen practice is not at all dependent upon cognitive 
> abilities.  In fact the usual beginning training is all geared to lead you 
> to the point where you stop your cognitive processes.
>  
> Zen practice is only dependent upon sensory awareness, only experiencing â€" 
> not rationalizing the experience.
>  
> …Bill!
>  
> 
> 
> 
> From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf 
> Of DP
> Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 3:24 AM
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Zen] Re: Unclear on what is mind
>  
>   
> 
> 
> 
> My concern then is the idea of losing the mind, either through senility or 
> dementia or mental illness. If we are stripped of our cognitive abilities, 
> then where is the mind, and how can we still practise?
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "cid830" <summitjags@> wrote:
> >
> > DP,
> > 
> > I think the concept of mind is the basis of Buddhism. From my perspective 
> > in practise, the mind is key to ultimate nirvana and the obstruction to 
> > getting there. It is the cause of our suffering and the only way to relieve 
> > that suffering. It is the reason we seek out religions to answer our 
> > questions of who we are, and the reason we still doubt no matter how much 
> > we want to believe. Through our mind we will find our Ultimate Widom, but 
> > we have to dissolve our ego and attachments, everything we have learned to 
> > distinguish us as individuals, and of those things the mind doesn't easily 
> > let go!
> > 
> > Master Bill is right, this is the Zen Forum. And Buddhism can be separate 
> > from zen, that is up for discussion. Many things can be related to zen. If 
> > you would like to discuss your views on religion with compassionate 
> > individuals, I'm sure you can find a friendly place here. And we'll find a 
> > way to relate them to zen.
> > 
> > Thank you DP, and thank you Master Bill,
> > 
> > it's good to be back.
> > 
> > Chris D 
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "DP" <wookielifeday@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Part of my fear of death is not so much of death but of senility or loss 
> > > of memory. In western terms, that's what I think of as mind. But I have 
> > > to admit, I dont know if I fully understand the Buddhist concept of mind. 
> > > Can anybody help with this?
> > >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
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