Siska, The historical stories of koans are full of verbal responses. Like ‘The Oak Tree in the Garden’, or ‘A dried shit-stick’, or the most famous of all ‘Mu’….Bill!
From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of siska_...@yahoo.com Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 7:49 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Hi Bill, > They are usually delivered as a question (What is X?) or a request (Show me > Y.). This was also mentioned in the article Ed posted. I can't imagine any words able to represent the responds to all those koans. siska ________________________________________ From: <billsm...@hhs1963.org> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 10:55:09 +0700 To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com> ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Siska, A koan doesn’t have to be either historical or a story. Current zen teachers very frequently create a koan especially tailored to address what they feel are inadequacies of a particular students. These probably wouldn't be delivered in story form. They are usually delivered as a question (What is X?) or a request (Show me Y.). You don't read much about these because they are a very personal communication between the teacher and student. The koans generally referred to are historical stories, accounts of the actions especially interactions of historical zen masters. The two most referenced works containing koans such as these are THE GATELESS GATE and THE BLUE CLIFF RECORD. The quality that makes a koan a koan is that it is a direct expression of Buddha Nature. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of siska_...@yahoo.com Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 10:18 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Hi Anthony, Bill, I'd be surprised if it has to be historically accurate to be a koan. Come to think about it, what makes a story (or perhaps a saying) a koan then? siska ________________________________________ From: <billsm...@hhs1963.org> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 16:13:53 +0700 To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com> ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Siska, I don’t mean to jump in for Anthony, but I’d like to respond to this too. Koans are like any other historical or even ancient writings. This includes the Bible. No one really knows whether the stories are really true, or mostly true or a compilation of several different occurrences in to one event or attributed to one person. For most stories like these it really doesn’t matter if they’re really true or not (unless you’re a fundamentalist Buddhist/Christian/Muslim/Fill-in-the-Blank). The story is a teaching tool and its historical accuracy is not really the point. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of siska_...@yahoo.com Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:55 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Hi Anthony, I previously thought most, if not all, koans are made up stories instead of real events. They are not? siska ________________________________________ From: Anthony Wu <wu...@yahoo.com.sg> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 05:30:31 +0800 (SGT) To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com> ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas The story of buddha holding up a flower was cooked up by a zen fan, out of thin air. Nevertheless, it is a good story. I like it. Anthony --- On Wed, 17/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote: From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 17 November, 2010, 11:29 AM Siska, A koan that immediately comes to mind: Buddha Holds up a Flower, Case 6 - GATELESS GATE: “Once in ancient times, when the World-Honored One was at Mount Grdhrakuta (Vulture Peak), he held up a flower, twirled it, and showed it to the assemblage. At this, they all remained silent. Only the venerable Kashyapa broke into a smile. The World-Honored One said: “I have the eye treasury of the true Dharma, the marvelous mind of nirvana, the true form of no-form, the subtle gate of the Dharma. It does not depend on letters, being especially transmitted outside of all teachings. Now I entrust Mahakashyapa with this.”” This koan shows the fundamentals of zen communication, and actually sets out in clear language that this communication “…does not depend on letters…” and that it is “…outside of all teachings.”. Two other examples of how this communication is used of particular interest are two koans, both attributed to Nansen: Ordinary Mind is the Way, Case 19 – GATELESS GATE “Joshu earnestly asked Nansen, “What is the Way?” Nansen answered, “The ordinary mind is the Way.” …” Knowing is Not the Way, Case 34 – GATELESS GATE “Nansen said, “Mind is not Buddha; knowing is not the Way.” Do you have some Sufi stories that you’d like to share? Thanks…Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of siska_...@yahoo.com Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 6:43 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Hi Bill, Actually one of the things that raised my interest in Zen is koans. > Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans. That explains why I never really understand what the koans are trying to tell. Yet I don't care, I just like them. Some say koans are not to be interpreted and analysed. I quite agree as the interpretations can sometimes be rather absurd. > Just observe (through reading) the communication techniques I don't really get this. You mean something like the pond and frog example? Siska ________________________________________ From: <billsm...@hhs1963.org> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 17:05:11 +0700 To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com> ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Siska, I believe face-to-face contact is the best medium. This can include language, utterances, gestures and of course also silence. I suggest you read some koans and especially pay attention at how the principals in the koans communicated with each other. Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans. Just observe (through reading) the communication techniques. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of siska_...@yahoo.com Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 8:02 AM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Hi Bill, The problem with language is not only that it is dualistic, but also that it relies heavily in words that are full with perceptions. Makes me wonder then, what is the good medium to communicate direct experience? Siska ________________________________________ From: <billsm...@hhs1963.org> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:27:07 +0700 To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com> ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Lluis, Just THIS! is before language. I assume what Chomsky is referring to as 'metalanguage' is just pattern recognition which is a function of our discriminating mind. When this function is applied to language I guess it could be called 'metalanguage' since it is an attribute that must be present to learn language. It would also make sense that this 'metalanguage' could be the foundation for grammar, although I still assert that grammar is an attempt to cram language into a nice, neat logical framework - and as we all know it doesn't actually fit very well. In any language there are a lot of exceptions to grammatical rules, and that is because the rules (logical structure) do not spring from the language itself, but are imposed upon it. So I think, from the way you described Chomsky's theory of language and 'metalanguage', that I disagree. I also disagree with your statement below that '...direct experience...is something that could not be communicated.' It certainly can be communicated, although language is not a very good medium for that precisely because most languages are dualistically-based. I haven't read any Sufi tales, but from the way you described them they sound a lot like zen koans. And if that's the case they aren't meant to be 'understood' - they are meant to communicate direct experience. As you say later in the paragraph, 'No way to explain...When the moment arrives, it is there.' ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lluís Mendieta Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:03 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Hi, Bill Well, I am just a chemist, not a linguist. But I have been teached the metalanguage theory of Chomsky: all languages have a subjacent grammar that brain understand, process and implement, making this way that children could produce perfect phrases that they have never heard before. So, the metalanguage exists before it is placed in the form of grammar. Grammar would be the verbalization of the metalanguage. Not after language. Just the language (or just this) The direct experience I feel that is something that could not be communicated. Would be maybe like the sufi tales: if you do not understand them, they are not for you. You feel (even beeing dualistic, I know, but I could not place in other way), or you feel not. No way to explain. No way to shre. Whe moment arrives, is there. Or maybe I am just a plain brick, very far from awareness With best wishes Lluís P.D.: the non dualistic form of the haiku, at least in spanish Rana Charco Chop! would be the lazy westerner form of : there is a frog, and a pond, and the frog makes plop (or my mind works this way, at least) ----- Original Message ----- From: billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 4:42 AM Subject: !QRE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Lluis, I’m not saying that Westerners, in fact all humans that manifest a dualistic, discriminating mind, are tied to subject/object and verbs that describe action. That’s a given. What I’m saying is that there are forms of English (and I suppose other languages) that are utterances free from subject/object/verb, that are not restricted by grammar. In the example phrases I used below: ‘Hungry!’ and ‘Fire!’, YOU are the one who is interjecting the dualism. If I yell ‘Fire!’ or ‘Duck!’ you will first just equate the sound to DANGER and react BEFORE you mentally reconstruct and augment the sound to ‘I have observed a fire and want to be sure you are aware of it.’ Other non-exclamatory examples are in poetry, especially zen-inspired haikus such as Basho's famous haiku in which he attempted to communicate a DIRECT EXPERIENCE (Buddha Mind) he had. There are many attempts at translating this haiku, and the results show me whether or not the translator was translating with his/her discriminating mind or Buddha Mind: ORIGINAL JAPANESE Furu ike ya kawazu tobikomu mizu no oto (Basho) DUALISTIC/DISCRIMINATING MIND TRANSLATION There once was a curious frog Who sat by a pond on a log And, to see what resulted, In the pond catapulted With a water-noise heard round the bog. (Alfred H. Marks) MIX OF DUALISTIC/DISCRIMINATING MIND AND BUDDHA MIND TRANSLATION Into the ancient pond A frog jumps Water’s sound! (D.T. Suzuki) BUDDHA MIND TRANSLATION pond frog plop! (James Kirkup) Remember when I posted about what I describe as 'zen talk' and 'talking about zen'? The first translation above is 'talking about an experience'. The second is a mix, and the third is 'experience talk' - or 'zen talk'. The point is that language does have the ability to be used and to communicate non-dualistic (no subject/object/verb) experiences. Language evolved, not engineered. It is not appropriate to try to superimpose a logical structure on an evolved system. The grammatical rules that we associate with languages have been developed AFTER-THE-FACT, not CONCURRENT with the language. For example humans could speak and communicate very well before anyone ever decided to categorize words into nouns, verbs, subjects and objects. All this grammar is imposed upon language in an attempt to 'understand' language. 'Understand' always means 'impose a logical structure'. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lluís Mendieta Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 4:42 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Hi, Bill Hungry! has also an implied subject: I am hungry! Fire! has also one, "it" : It is in fire! (although could be also "there is a fire!" and that would be impersonal, I suppose) Ugghhhhh! Y only know true impersonals (no subject ) in spanish, catalan and french On vende ..... Se vende botellas ("se venden botellas" is a pasiva refleja, not a true impersonal.... That drived me crazy in Bacchaloreat....) Seems that westerners are tied to sujects and verbs. With best wishes Lluís ----- Original Message ----- From: billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 3:39 AM Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Lluis, In the example I used ‘Hungry?’ you are correct that the subject (you) is implied probably because it is a question. How about ‘Hungry!’; or better yet ‘Fire!’?. In the case of ‘Fire!’ there is no subject/object implied – just ‘Fire!’, Just THIS! It’s interesting to learn that Finnish has a lot of words to define relationships. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lluís Mendieta Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 4:06 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Hi, Bill I beg to differ in two non zen questions -Hungry? has the subject implicit. You do not place it, but it is implied. The werb in spanish or catalan would be also implicit, so, I suppose same in english. -finnish is a westerner language. And they have a lot of words to design the relationship within family. With best wishes Lluís ----- Original Message ----- From: billsm...@hhs1963.org To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 8:09 AM Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas Anthony, I know Thai’s drop subject and sometimes even object all the time, but I thought it was just because they, like Westerners, are lazy. For example, I could ask you: ‘Are you hungry?’, or I could just ask by saying: ‘Hungry?’ (with a rising tone). That's just laziness, or being casual in your speech. I do think language does reveal the different values of culture. For example in Thai there are only 3 tenses: past, present and future; whereas there are many, many adjectives and pronouns that are used to specifically identify the speaker's relationship with the one addressed. In English there are many (27?) verb tenses and very few special pronouns. This I think shows that Westerner's value time more than Asians; whereas Asians put more importance on personal relationships than time. ...Bill! 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