Bill; Thanks for the description and clarification of the words "Illusion" and "delusion" you give. According to your description the correct word that I should have used was Illusion and not delusion. Thanks for pointing out. Language is a funny thing. Mayka
--- On Sat, 2/4/11, Bill! <[email protected]> wrote: From: Bill! <[email protected]> Subject: [Zen] Re: Is Zen a religion? To: [email protected] Date: Saturday, 2 April, 2011, 2:31 Mayka, I agree with you - I think, but then again I might just be delusional! The English words 'illusion' and 'delusion' refer to something similar, but there are differences. The term 'illusion' is in my opinion a better term to describe such things as you've posted below. The term 'delusion' implies a more sinister and problematic mental state. MERRIAM-WEBSTER Online: ILLUSION = perception of something objectively existing in such a way as to cause misinterpretation of its actual nature DELUSION = a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary; also : the abnormal state marked by such beliefs ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Maria Lopez <flordeloto@...> wrote: > > Bill: >  > Blind faith based in a believe in something that one has not experienced is > delusional. Faith based in something that one has experienced, it's not a > comcept or something delusional.  Attachement to the experience of faith > might be delusional too.   >  > Mayka > > --- On Thu, 31/3/11, Bill! <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > Subject: [Zen] Re: Is Zen a religion? > To: [email protected] > Date: Thursday, 31 March, 2011, 2:25 > > >  > > > > Mayka, > > Words! Words! Words! They'll be the death of us all... > > By 'faith' I mean any belief you hold that is not based on actual experience. > > I ASSUME what you mean when you say 'faith based on experience' is that you > interpret and extend the experience, and then form a concept and belief of > that interpretation or extension. The experience is real. Perhaps the > interpretation or extension is done by applying logic or wishful thinking - > it really doesn't matter. The interpretation or extension is not real. It's > illusion. If you form a belief around that illusion then that's faith. > > Is that what you mean? > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Maria Lopez <flordeloto@> wrote: > > > > Bill: > >  > > What about when faith comes out from something one has experienced to be of > > well being to one and the whole universe?. What about when faith is > > based in awareness?.  Would all that also be considered a > > religion? > >  > > Mayka > > > > --- On Wed, 30/3/11, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Is Zen a religion? > > To: [email protected] > > Date: Wednesday, 30 March, 2011, 7:36 > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > Mayka, > > > > If you had that faith you would be practicing zen religiously. There's > > nothing wrong with faith and religion. I never said there was. > > > > I do say that the essense of zen is not faith-based and its practice is not > > a relgion...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Maria Lopez <flordeloto@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill; > > >  > > > ...And yet I wish I  had more faith in the practice > > > of zazen at each moment daily  activities after > > > having experienced the stability and well being it brings to ones > > > life.  > > >  > > > To All: > > >  > > > I paste here a couple of links in with the term of religion description > > > given. I never thought before in how many different ways this > > > word is used. > > >  > > >  > > > Different meanings of religion according to wiki: > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=religion+meaning&fulltext=1 > > > > > > Religion > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion > > >  > > > Mayka > > >  > > >  > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 29/3/11, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Is Zen a religion? > > > To: [email protected] > > > Date: Tuesday, 29 March, 2011, 10:18 > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > M > > > ayka, > > > > > > I agree with what your instructor taught. Your experiences are not based > > > on faith. ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Maria Lopez <flordeloto@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Bill; > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > ÃÆ'‚ Instructor kept pointing out over and over that > > > > Buddhism was not a set of beliefs but something to > > > > beÃÆ'‚ experienced first in oneÃÆ'‚ and > > > > then believe.ÃÆ'‚ We were > > > > alsoÃÆ'‚ toldÃÆ'‚ never talk about > > > > anything that we didn't first experience in us. That Buddhism was not a > > > > religion of faith but something based in living > > > > experience.ÃÆ'‚ > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > This was the statement from the Buddha I recall to be told: > > > > "Do not believe in anything I say, first experience it and once you > > > > experience it, then believe".ÃÆ'‚ > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > Mayka > > > > > > > > --- On Mon, 28/3/11, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Is Zen a religion? > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Date: Monday, 28 March, 2011, 10:29 > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mayka, > > > > > > > > As a very broad statement I consider any structured set of beliefs > > > > based on faith as a religion. > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Maria Lopez <flordeloto@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Steve; > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > I'm under the impresion that buddhism in some Countries is regarded > > > > > as a religion and the way it's follow is as Buddha kind of "God" and > > > > > other Contries is more a way of > > > > > living.ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ It may be depending > > > > > upo different schools and traditions Buddhism come > > > > > from.ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ I was educated to see > > > > > buddhism as non religion.ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > In fact our instructor used to tell us never try to convert anyone > > > > > into buddhism as it wasn't a religion but a way to freely choose to > > > > > live or not.ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ We were also > > > > > instructed to only talk about the dharma if someone asked a question > > > > > or that person was interested.ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > It will be interesting to know what you, Bill and others consider a > > > > > religion. > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > Mayka > > > > > > > > > > --- On Mon, 28/3/11, SteveW <eugnostos2000@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: SteveW <eugnostos2000@> > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Is Zen a religion? > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Date: Monday, 28 March, 2011, 5:15 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > JMJM, > > > > > > > > > > > > In my opinion: > > > > > > > > > > > > US PERCEPTIONS > > > > > > - Buddhism is considered a religion - albeit a quirky one. > > > > > > - Zen Buddhism is considered a sect of Buddhism. > > > > > > > > > > > > WORLD PERCEPTION > > > > > > - Buddhism is considered a religion. > > > > > > - Zen Buddhism is considered a sect of Buddhism - albeit a quiky > > > > > > one. > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill! Oh, Buddhism itself can be properly regarded as a > > > > > > philosophy rather than a religion. There is an interesting book by > > > > > > Stephen Batchelor entitled Buddhism Without Beliefs. Mr. Batchelor > > > > > > received Dharma transmission, if I am not mistaken, in the Korean > > > > > > form of Zen. > > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
