'Ruthless' Bill! - I like that!!!!
--- In [email protected], Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺å¦ç²¾æ
<chan.jmjm@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Anthony,
>
> Thank you. Bill has two categories in his communication. One is "Just
> This" and the other is "Illusory". And that's dualistic. :-)
>
> I would interpret his "Just This" category to be Chi, and the "illusory"
> category to be all the manifestation of the "Chi". Then it is one and
> not two. And this one can explain everything in the universe. Then
> this practice is whole and complete.
>
> Additionally, labels such as kensho, satori, enlightenment are nothing
> but description of the various physiological states of ourselves. If we
> dig deeper, physiological is a scientific word. Layman's word is
> spiritual. By spiritual, I mean how we feel. Compassion and wisdom in
> our school are in the spiritual domain. (I will get to that later in a
> more complete way) Nonetheless, even though we all agree words are
> useless in our journey, each of our spiritual states are distinct.
> Maintaining or reaching these states requires detailed explanation,
> because they are so abstract. How are we be able to communicate without
> them.
>
> Often I admire Bill for his ruthless way trying to help everyone staying
> on course. For the sake of beginners, yes, absolutely. In our school,
> we don't talk about spirituality until at least sitting for five to six
> years. Then the practitioner may have some of the chakras and chi
> channels open and feeling his spiritual states. Otherwise spirituality
> is just an empty word. As empty, or shall I say as illusory, as kensho,
> satori and enlightenment.
>
> Need to stop here. Talk to you later. JM
>
> Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
> http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
> http://www.heartchan.org
>
>
> On 4/7/2011 12:40 AM, Anthony Wu wrote:
> >
> > JM,
> > Be careful about Bill's generalization. It may wipe out all your
> > 'spirits'.
> > Anthony
> >
> > --- On *Thu, 7/4/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺å¦ç²¾æ
> > /<chan.jmjm@...>/* wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺å¦ç²¾æ <chan.jmjm@...>
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Does Zen contain spirituality?
> > To: [email protected]
> > Date: Thursday, 7 April, 2011, 2:33 PM
> >
> > Hi Bill,
> >
> > Very interesting. Thank you for taking the time to write it. I
> > enjoyed reading it.
> >
> > From you input, it seems to indicate that in the western culture,
> > the word "spirit" and "spiritual" are not part of everyday life.
> > These two words are in the supernatural domain and beyond everyday
> > conversation. Is this true? Or is it just in Zen_Forum?
> >
> > In the Chinese culture, spirit or spiritual states are very common
> > in everyday life. Usually if I say that I am happy or sad, it
> > also means that my spirit is high or low. Nothing supernatural
> > about it. I would say to the majority Chinese, mental state is
> > spiritual state. I don't know whether Anothony agrees with this
> > or not. It could be just me. Besides, my Chinese is not very
> > good either.
> >
> > Please respond. I do understand that generalization are risky.
> > But this could be important to know.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > JM
> >
> > Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
> > http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com <http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/>
> > http://www.heartchan.org <http://www.heartchan.org/>
> >
> >
> > On 4/6/2011 7:00 PM, Bill! wrote:
> >> JMJM,
> >> It's about 8A here. I've been up since 6A and have had my moring
> >> cup of tea - my personal favorite caffeine delivery device.
> >> I'll embedd my comments in your original post below:
> >> > > > JMJM:
> >> > > > I have heard many people say, "I am spiritual but not
> >> religious."
> >> > > >
> >> > > > What does "am spiritual" mean?
> >> To answer this question we need to know what 'spiritual' and
> >> 'religious' means, and especially what the differences are. We
> >> also have to assume that the people you quoted are using the
> >> words correctly and all the same. That's probably not true, but
> >> without interrogating each of them we'll just have to assume they
> >> are.
> >> *** All definitions are from Merriam-Webster Online ***
> >> SPIRITUAL
> >> The root of 'spiritual' is 'spirit' , which is defined as:
> >> *"1:* an animating or vital principle held to give life to
> >> physical organisms
> >> 2*:* a supernatural being or essence"
> >> So now we have to find out what 'supernatural' means: Again,
> >> according to Merriam-Webster it means:
> >> *"1:* of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible
> >> observable universe; /especially/ *:* of or relating to God or a
> >> god, demigod, spirit, or devil
> >> 2:/a/ *:* departing from what is usual or normal especially so as
> >> to appear to transcend the laws of nature /b/ *:* attributed to
> >> an invisible agent (as a ghost or spirit)"
> >> RELIGIOUS
> >> The root of 'religious' is 'religion', which is defined as:
> >> /"b (1)/ *:* the service and worship of God or the supernatural"
> >> Since 'supernatural' is used in both we should find out what
> >> 'natural' means:
> >> "/a/ *:* the inherent character or basic constitution of a
> >> person or thing *: *essence"
> >> So...from all of the above I'd say both 'spiritual' and
> >> 'religious' have to do with things that are 'supernatural' -
> >> above or beyond the essence of things. And the difference is
> >> 'spiritual' only implies belief in the supernatural, where
> >> 'religious' implies service or worship or the supernatural.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > In your opinion, does Zen contain spirituality?
> >> > > >
> >> Zen Buddhism I think does include 'spitituality' from the layers
> >> of Buddhism in which it is encased. In my opinion zen (lower
> >> case 'z' which for me implies zen practice devoid of Buddhism or
> >> any other religion) is only about 'essence' (in fact the term
> >> 'Buddha NATURE' is often used - which just means 'pure essence'
> >> or 'raw awareness') and does not recognize anything above or
> >> beyond that, such as anything 'supernatural'. The zen I
> >> pracitce does not depend or refer to anything 'supernatural'.
> >> Therefore in my opinion zen is not spiritual.
> >> > > > If yes, then what is spirituality? What is a spirit? Is
> >> there such a thing?
> >> > > >
> >> I've given the definitionof spirituality and spirit above. In my
> >> opinion these are illusory.
> >> To put it into the perpective of Chan (from what you've taught me
> >> about Chan) I think 1) the concept of 'chi' would be an
> >> excellent example of 'spirit' ; 2) the belief in 'chi' would be
> >> an excercise in spiritualty; and 3) the service or worship of
> >> 'chi' would be a religious act. From what you've said about Chan
> >> I think it incorporates 1 and 2, but not 3 above.
> >> > > > If not, then what is Zen for? Live a better life? If so,
> >> does it mean a
> >> > > > happier life? If so, then is happiness a spiritual state?
> >> Is our mental
> >> > > > state a spiritual state? Is there a difference?
> >> > > >
> >> The answer to 'what is Zen [Buddhism] for?' is up to each
> >> individual. I'm sure for some it's practiced for peace-of-mind
> >> or health or ??? Maybe some Zen Buddhists on this site will add
> >> their opinions on what they think 'Zen is for'. The zen I
> >> practice is not 'for' anything, anymore than a tree is 'for'
> >> something - or a river or the moon. It isn't 'for' anything
> >> (although I'm sure 'men of science' could come up with lots of
> >> roles that trees and rivers and the moon play in our enviornment,
> >> and therefore could extrapolate of what they're 'for'. The zen I
> >> practice just 'is', in fact it is my essence - or more correctly
> >> stated 'just essence' , Just THIS!
> >> What is JMJM for?
> >> Labels, valuations such as 'happier' or 'happiness' are illusory,
> >> and as such are transitory. You can't have happy without having
> >> sad, and you can't have either until you create 'self' so there
> >> is 1) something that can be or feel happy/sad, and 2) other NOW's
> >> (Just THIS!) that you could compare to this NOW in order to make
> >> the judgement as to whether this NOW is happier/sadder,
> >> better/worse, etc... than the other NOW. Why bother?
> >> > > > When we reach samadhi, kensho, satori, etc. is it a
> >> spiritual state?
> >> > > > Mental state? Or just a state without label?
> >> > > >
> >> It is not a spiritual state, nothing supernatural. It is the
> >> quintessencial natural act. It is 'essence'. It is called
> >> Buddha Nature. It exists before labels are created.
> >>
> >> > > > You could say, Zen can not be described, then I have not
> >> asked this
> >> > > > question.:-)
> >> > > >
> >> I'm certainly glad to have not asked this question, and to thank
> >> you I have not responded.
> >>
> >> ...Bill!
> >
> >
>
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