Thank you Daniel: Just writing this first mail for you to acknowledge that I've been reading your mail. You have giving me enough material to read well first and reflect upon your responses. I'll be back to you as soon as I can. Thank you once again for the time spent and the effort you put in each of your postings. Your contribution in this forum is very important. We never had an Scholar from the Theravada School in the forum before. ^_^ Mayka
--- On Fri, 20/5/11, empty0grace <[email protected]> wrote: From: empty0grace <[email protected]> Subject: [Zen] Response to Mayka To: [email protected] Date: Friday, 20 May, 2011, 17:28 Hello Mayka, Thank you again, for your attention and your questions. This time I also have some questions for you, since I am having trouble understanding some of your points. You say there is no understanding, but then are you without understanding of what is before you or what you are doing? Surely you are not just going into a trance, lapsing into concentration states, hypnogogic states or in delusion about your present experience? It seems to me from what you say that understanding is very present. Do you think I am wrong? I think we are getting caught up in words here. I just read a new post you have up where you stated: "The reason because that is an add on is because one only has to pay ATTENTION and RECOGNISE whatever is there. One does not need from any list to tell you that you have a sensation of cold, heat, mental formation of anger, peace...." You say, recognize. This is exactly what I mean: a conscious act of re-cognition. This is not just bare sensory awareness. This is what is meant by understanding. The lists are unnecessary. They serve only to help define our terms so as to minimize the kinds of arguments and misunderstanding that are occurring here. The Buddha made a very good attempt at creating an "objective" yogic language for his followers to share, not perfect of course, but still it is helpful. Like mindfulness, understanding is a mental factor that is always present in consciousness. If you don't like the word mental factor, then the word "consciousness-concommitant" is also sometimes used. These cetasika are aspects are ways in which consciousness functions. For example, energy is another one. Low energy, and you are sleepy or you have sinking mind. Samadhi, or ekagrata is unification of mind, it is also cetasika or mental factor, as is trust. These five: mindfulness, understanding, trust, concentration and energy are the five factors that control the evolution of meditation practice. In Satipatthana, these are what the teacher looks at when the student comes in for an interview to see what needs to be balanced out so the contemplation does not go off track, or get stuck. They are a very useful tool to generate deeper understanding of practice, once the student has reached an intermediate level (as I define this). What do you mean when you say there is non-duality? You speak of objects such as body and mind. Is consciousness identical to the objects? If so, then how do they know themselves? If not, then is this not duality of consciousness and object? You see, I also am confused when you speak J To me, what is understood changes at different stages in the development of mindfulness depending on how the mind apprehends the object. For example what appears to be a painful knee at one stage later appears to be only vibrations and unpleasant sensations at another. Eventually, background and foreground merge, there is only consciousness functioning with vibrations of energy within it. One cannot say if the energy is one or separate from consciousness because there is not point of view outside of consciousness from which to make the assertion. But still there is understanding present with consciousness as to what is going down. Still I am aware "now there is only empty energy vibrations." Not in mental images or words of course; those cannot survive in that environment, but simply as understanding. There are in 11 such stages in the unfolding of the progress of insight (more depending on how you choose to divide them). Each has it's own "ñana" or insight knowledge. For example, there is "knowledge of dissolution" and "knowledge of what is and what is not the path" and there is "knowledge discerning conditionality" etc. Do you not have such noticeable stages of progress in your tradition? They may not be named, but I am pretty sure that most students will go through a common set of experiences as their practice matures. Surely there is some development of concentration and mindfulness over the years and this must change the way reality appears? In your previous post you asked: "In connection with understanding my comprehension over your post is that you mean an understanding free from any rational understanding. It's an understanding coming out the same awareness. Is it this what you meant by it?" Mayka, I would say that rational understanding if in harmony with insight is not an obstacle. This would in fact be right understanding, the first step of the Noble Eightfold Path. But it does tend to dissolve as the mind learns to let go and trust the light of wisdom to function naturally. However we cannot say that they are contradictory, otherwise we say that the natural light of understanding is occluded by the functioning of the rational mind. I would say that the purpose of "right understanding" is precisely to bring about a functioning of the rational mind that is in harmony with direct understanding or as the Buddha called it "knowledge and vision", and therefor does not obscure it. You see even in this phrase Knowledge and Vision, much used in the Pali scriptures, this two fold aspect of the development is being pointed out. There is the perception of reality, and the understanding of it. So for example, you are contemplating impermanence. You see that every aspect of the five aggregates is in a state of constant change, but then one day you really get it. Oh! I get it! It's impermanent! Really really really non-abiding, not just a perception, but the actual reality of all my experience all the time. There is no refuge anywhere for consciousness. Everything is dissolving all the time! These are words of course and they cannot convey the depth and power of the insight. But I am sure you understand. But do you see how this understanding, even if put into words, mentally, does not obscure the impact of this realization? This is right understanding. Then you said to me: "Imagine that you are contemplating one of those coloring sunrise over the sea. You sit down on the sand. Can you visualize it and give a description of it? Please, don't write anything that you didn't experience during your visualization. (This may not be very zen but would like to show you something)." OK, here I just spent a couple of minutes visualizing a sunset. It is a beautiful red-orange color. The bottom of the sun it just touching the horizon; it kind of spreads out a bit. It is a little hard to look at. There are no clouds. The background light around the sun in greenish yellow fading into violet above. The waves appear reflective in the distance, and dark as they get closer. I feel calm and happy. The longer I visualize the more detail I can bring in. If I now apply mindfulness to this experience, the entire business begins to dissolve into mental light. Have a wonderful day! And thanks for your patience... Daniel
