Daniel: You say there
is no understanding, but then are you without understanding of what
is before you or what you are doing? Surely you are not just going
into a trance, lapsing into concentration states, hypnogogic states
or in delusion about your present experience? It seems to me from
what you say that understanding is very present. Do you think I am
wrong? I think we are getting caught up in words here. I just read a
new post you have up where you stated:
Mayka: In previous post
you wrote something in connection with understanding. I said that
there is an understanding that is rational and that is not within
buddha nature. Then my statement was there is an understanding that
is not understanding, implying that the rational thinking mind is not
taking place on it. Afterwards my question was if that is the sort
understanding you were referring to (the non rational one).
Daniel: You say,
recognize. This is exactly what I mean: a conscious act of
re-cognition. This is not just bare sensory awareness. This is what
is meant by understanding. The lists are unnecessary. They serve only
to help define our terms so as to minimize the kinds of arguments and
misunderstanding that are occurring here. The Buddha made a very good
attempt at creating an "objective" yogic language for his
followers to share, not perfect of course, but still it is helpful.
Mayka: The list may be
useful to Theravada students but it's not of much use to me at the
present moment because at present I'm finding more practical and much
more simple to stay with what arises in me.
Daniel: Like
mindfulness, understanding is a mental factor that is always present
in consciousness. If you don't like the word mental factor, then the
word "consciousness-concommitant" is also sometimes used.
These cetasika are aspects are ways in which consciousness functions.
For example, energy is another one. Low energy, and you are sleepy or
you have sinking mind. Samadhi, or ekagrata is unification of mind,
it is also cetasika or mental factor, as is trust. These five:
mindfulness, understanding, trust, concentration and energy are the
five factors that control the evolution of meditation practice. In
Satipatthana, these are what the teacher looks at when the student
comes in for an interview to see what needs to be balanced out so the
contemplation does not go off track, or get stuck. They are a
very useful tool to generate deeper understanding of practice, once
the student has reached an intermediate level (as I define this).
Mayka: When I'm low of
energy, I'm aware of being low of energy. Then I stop, rest and
practice awareness of my body and mind with conscious in and out
breathing., And that restores energy levels. This paragraph is again
of difficult comprehension to me. It's educative but irrelevant to
my practice.
Daniel: What do you mean
when you say there is non-duality? You speak of objects such as body
and mind. Is consciousness identical to the objects? If so, then how
do they know themselves? If not, then is this not duality of
consciousness and object? You see, I also am confused when you speak
J
Mayka: When I talk about non duality means that
because there is conscious breathing in and out, mindfulness,
awareness, attention, observation, recognition, acceptance,... of
what is going on in body and mind the same conscious breathing,
minfulness, awareness....dissolves by itself before even taking place
the entanglament, attachement to any perception, sensation, feeling,
emotion, mental formation, thought...
Daniel: To me, what is
understood changes at different stages in the development of
mindfulness depending on how the mind apprehends the object. For
example what appears to be a painful knee at one stage later appears
to be only vibrations and unpleasant sensations at another.
Eventually, background and foreground merge, there is only
consciousness functioning with vibrations of energy within it. One
cannot say if the energy is one or separate from consciousness
because there is not point of view outside of consciousness from
which to make the assertion. But still there is understanding
present with consciousness as to what is going down. Still I am aware
"now there is only empty energy vibrations." Not in mental
images or words of course; those cannot survive in that environment,
but simply as understanding. There are in 11 such stages in the
unfolding of the progress of insight (more depending on how you
choose to divide them). Each has it's own "ñana" or
insight knowledge. For example, there is "knowledge of
dissolution" and "knowledge of what is and what is not the
path" and there is "knowledge discerning conditionality"
etc.
Mayka: I don't understand this paragraph very well. It sounds as
something very complicated and definetely needs from a Teacher to
guide one here.
Daniel: Do you not have
such noticeable stages of progress in your tradition? They may not be
named, but I am pretty sure that most students will go through a
common set of experiences as their practice matures. Surely there is
some development of concentration and mindfulness over the years and
this must change the way reality appears?
Mayka: I don't know if
there are different stages. If there are I don't about them. I
never received the full education and training face to face you are
receiving. In fact I grow through the years anger and distrust over
the TNH institution in this respect. His institution seem to focus
more in expanding in numbers of people rather than taking first care
and given the appropiate education and training to the people they
already have. So even when one would attend a retreat with them the
same basic for beginers dharma will be repeating over and over again.
In different words any evolution I've been having in the practice it
has to do more with my individual practice and some spare retreats
over the years face to face with the Ven. And Monastics, plus
sessions of sitting down with the local sangha here in Edinburgh.
Therefore, it's natural having evolved more in the pure zen line
rather than any buddhist background. Hope talking in such straight
forward manners won't be offensive to you, your tradition and
anybody else. I consider very important being honest, sincere and to
show to others what we are really about so they don't get confused
about one and the particular way one has evolved. But then again,
the Buddha evolved by himself alone. He just sat down. And that is
exaclty what Dogen considered the chore of zen practice. I have
added to it the very useful teaching interpretated by myself direct
experience with it of mindfulness=awareness
About sunrise
visualization. I wanted you to experience the whole rainbow of
awareness. So that you could see by yourself the simplicity of just
being there with what we have in front of us. There is no mention in
your description any sensation from your body, any passing thought in
your mind, the waves of the sea coming and going, its noise, its,
smell, your breathing going in and out as in alike rhythm of the wave
sea, sunrise with sea smells and your response to it, muscles in the
face..............Perhaps visualization wasn't such a good idea after
all and the best is that if you have the chance....then you could do
it for real.
Thank you for being
there in your full presence
Mayka
--- On Fri, 20/5/11, empty0grace <[email protected]> wrote:
From: empty0grace <[email protected]>
Subject: [Zen] Response to Mayka
To: [email protected]
Date: Friday, 20 May, 2011, 17:28
Hello Mayka,
Thank you again, for your attention and your questions. This time I also have
some questions for you, since I am having trouble understanding some of your
points.
You say there is no understanding, but then are you without understanding of
what is before you or what you are doing? Surely you are not just going into a
trance, lapsing into concentration states, hypnogogic states or in delusion
about your present experience? It seems to me from what you say that
understanding is very present. Do you think I am wrong? I think we are getting
caught up in words here. I just read a new post you have up where you stated:
"The reason because that is an add on is because one only has to pay ATTENTION
and RECOGNISE whatever is there. One does not need from any list to tell you
that you have a sensation of cold, heat, mental formation of anger, peace...."
You say, recognize. This is exactly what I mean: a conscious act of
re-cognition. This is not just bare sensory awareness. This is what is meant by
understanding. The lists are unnecessary. They serve only to help define our
terms so as to minimize the kinds of arguments and misunderstanding that are
occurring here. The Buddha made a very good attempt at creating an "objective"
yogic language for his followers to share, not perfect of course, but still it
is helpful.
Like mindfulness, understanding is a mental factor that is always present in
consciousness. If you don't like the word mental factor, then the word
"consciousness-concommitant" is also sometimes used. These cetasika are aspects
are ways in which consciousness functions. For example, energy is another one.
Low energy, and you are sleepy or you have sinking mind. Samadhi, or ekagrata
is unification of mind, it is also cetasika or mental factor, as is trust.
These five: mindfulness, understanding, trust, concentration and energy are the
five factors that control the evolution of meditation practice. In
Satipatthana, these are what the teacher looks at when the student comes in for
an interview to see what needs to be balanced out so the contemplation does not
go off track, or get stuck. They are a very useful tool to generate deeper
understanding of practice, once the student has reached an intermediate level
(as I define this).
What do you mean when you say there is non-duality? You speak of objects such
as body and mind. Is consciousness identical to the objects? If so, then how do
they know themselves? If not, then is this not duality of consciousness and
object? You see, I also am confused when you speak J
To me, what is understood changes at different stages in the development of
mindfulness depending on how the mind apprehends the object. For example what
appears to be a painful knee at one stage later appears to be only vibrations
and unpleasant sensations at another. Eventually, background and foreground
merge, there is only consciousness functioning with vibrations of energy within
it. One cannot say if the energy is one or separate from consciousness because
there is not point of view outside of consciousness from which to make the
assertion. But still there is understanding present with consciousness as to
what is going down. Still I am aware "now there is only empty energy
vibrations." Not in mental images or words of course; those cannot survive in
that environment, but simply as understanding. There are in 11 such stages in
the unfolding of the progress of insight (more depending on how you choose to
divide them). Each has it's own "ñana" or
insight knowledge. For example, there is "knowledge of dissolution" and
"knowledge of what is and what is not the path" and there is "knowledge
discerning conditionality" etc.
Do you not have such noticeable stages of progress in your tradition? They may
not be named, but I am pretty sure that most students will go through a common
set of experiences as their practice matures. Surely there is some development
of concentration and mindfulness over the years and this must change the way
reality appears?
In your previous post you asked:
"In connection with understanding my comprehension over your post is that you
mean an understanding free from any rational understanding. It's an
understanding coming out the same awareness. Is it this what you meant by it?"
Mayka, I would say that rational understanding if in harmony with insight is
not an obstacle. This would in fact be right understanding, the first step of
the Noble Eightfold Path. But it does tend to dissolve as the mind learns to
let go and trust the light of wisdom to function naturally. However we cannot
say that they are contradictory, otherwise we say that the natural light of
understanding is occluded by the functioning of the rational mind. I would say
that the purpose of "right understanding" is precisely to bring about a
functioning of the rational mind that is in harmony with direct understanding
or as the Buddha called it "knowledge and vision", and therefor does
not obscure it. You see even in this phrase Knowledge and Vision, much used in
the Pali scriptures, this two fold aspect of the development is being pointed
out. There is the perception of reality, and the understanding of it. So for
example, you are contemplating
impermanence. You see that every aspect of the five aggregates is in a state
of constant change, but then one day you really get it. Oh! I get it! It's
impermanent! Really really really non-abiding, not just a perception, but the
actual reality of all my experience all the time. There is no refuge anywhere
for consciousness. Everything is dissolving all the time! These are words of
course and they cannot convey the depth and power of the insight. But I am sure
you understand. But do you see how this understanding, even if put into words,
mentally, does not obscure the impact of this realization? This is right
understanding.
Then you said to me:
"Imagine that you are contemplating one of those coloring sunrise over the
sea. You sit down on the sand. Can you visualize it and give a description of
it? Please, don't write anything that you didn't experience during your
visualization. (This may not be very zen but would like to show you
something)."
OK, here I just spent a couple of minutes visualizing a sunset. It is a
beautiful red-orange color. The bottom of the sun it just touching the horizon;
it kind of spreads out a bit. It is a little hard to look at. There are no
clouds. The background light around the sun in greenish yellow fading into
violet above. The waves appear reflective in the distance, and dark as they get
closer. I feel calm and happy. The longer I visualize the more detail I can
bring in. If I now apply mindfulness to this experience, the entire business
begins to dissolve into mental light.
Have a wonderful day! And thanks for your patience...
Daniel
