Bill,
Yes, I do tend to be tenacious in seeking clarification of fundamental issues. What a Zen master says to his student can be 'expedient means'. One can have a goal in the background without necessarily being 'attached'. I would say that in Zen one both does and does not have a goal. I think that, basically, the two of us are not in disagreement. --ED --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: > ED, You are persistent! The reason you'll see a lot of zen teachings which say that zen or zazen has "no hope, expectation, reason or gain" - no goal, is that it anything like that would be an attachment. Attachments cause suffering. That's Buddhism 101. So...zen teacher's don't want you to just add on another attachment. I can only answer for myself. When I began zen practice I certainly had a goal. It was a very selfish goal. That goal (attachment) certianly got me started and helped me persist in my early practice. BUT at sometime I had to abandon that goal for at least 2 reasons: 1 - is that it was a goal that if achieved would be harmful to me, and 2 - is was just another attachment that I had to 'see through' and discard. Actually in writing these I just found out they say the same thing. The goal turned out to be just another illusion. So...zen teachers usually (and properly) just tell a student that zazen has no goal. What they don't say I guess is that if you are practicing zen with a goal in mind, you'll eventually have to deal with that also. ...Bill! --- In [email protected] <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/post?postID=gImt4zGDwLd18vuASRI\ FOJtwwgRPJmH7cdx28-XyV0SJ1xjsoeRZAoW2Hz6UZiIrsfJzP2aQIZHzZ6HCvGD0LW8QAA> , "ED" <seacrofter001@...> wrote: > > Bill!, > > No goal for any specific zazen session. OK. Any hope, expectation, > reason or gain for being involved in zazen, in general? Any hope, > expectation, reason or gain for being involved with Zen? > > Thanks, ED > --- In [email protected] <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/post?postID=gImt4zGDwLd18vuASRI\ FOJtwwgRPJmH7cdx28-XyV0SJ1xjsoeRZAoW2Hz6UZiIrsfJzP2aQIZHzZ6HCvGD0LW8QAA> , "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > ED, > > > > Please read (again) Warner-Schwarner's comments below, especially this > one: > > > > [Warner-Schwarner] The goal (or even "a goal") of zazen is not to > clear your mind of thoughts. There is no goal of zazen. > > > > ...Bill!
