Hi Bill,

> So...zen teachers usually (and properly) just tell a student that zazen has 
> no goal. What they don't say I guess is that if you are practicing zen with a 
> goal in mind, you'll eventually have to deal with that also.

I don't think anyone can practise without goal (no matter how the teacher says 
not to, or even how one believes that he/she is not supposed to have any goal) 
until he deals with this. 

Until then, either one practises with goal, or thinks he practises without goal.

Siska
-----Original Message-----
From: "Bill!" <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 00:58:20 
To: <[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism

ED,

You are persistent!  Do you have a profession in sales?

The reason you'll see a lot of zen teachings which say that zen or zazen has 
"no hope, expectation, reason or gain" - no goal, is that it anything like that 
would be an attachment.  Attachments cause suffering.  That's Buddhism 101.  
So...zen teacher's don't want you to just add on another attachment.

I can only answer for myself.  When I began zen practice I certainly had a 
goal.  It was a very selfish goal.  That goal (attachment) certianly got me 
started and helped me persist in my early practice.  BUT at sometime I had to 
abandon that goal for at least 2 reasons: 1 - is that it was a goal that if 
achieved would be harmful to me, and 2 - is was just another attachment that I 
had to 'see through' and discard.  Actually in writing these I just found out 
they say the same thing.  The goal turned out to be just another illusion.

So...zen teachers usually (and properly) just tell a student that zazen has no 
goal.  What they don't say I guess is that if you are practicing zen with a 
goal in mind, you'll eventually have to deal with that also.

...Bill!

--- In [email protected], "ED" <seacrofter001@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Bill!,
> 
> No goal for any specific zazen session.  OK.   Any hope, expectation,
> reason or gain for being involved in zazen, in general? Any hope,
> expectation, reason or gain for being involved with Zen?
> 
> Thanks, ED
> 
> 
> 
> --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote:
> >
> > ED,
> >
> > Please read (again) Warner-Schwarner's comments below, especially this
> one:
> >
> > [Warner-Schwarner] The goal (or even "a goal") of zazen is not to
> clear your mind of thoughts. There is no goal of zazen.
> >
> >  ...Bill!
>



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