Thanks Anthony! Mayka --- On Sat, 23/7/11, Anthony Wu <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Anthony Wu <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Zen elements? To: [email protected] Date: Saturday, 23 July, 2011, 12:18 Mayka, Long time no hear. It is nice to hear from you again. Whatever you say, I always listen. Anthony --- On Sat, 23/7/11, Maria Lopez <[email protected]> wrote: From: Maria Lopez <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Zen elements? To: [email protected] Date: Saturday, 23 July, 2011, 6:34 PM Hi Anthony: If you pay too much attention to the surface of religions and their institutions you may find yourself into continuos comparations, choosing and picking, and a waste of time debates. Get into the soul of all religions and you'll see that there is no difference between them teachings. Mayka --- On Thu, 21/7/11, Anthony Wu <[email protected]> wrote: From: Anthony Wu <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Zen elements? To: [email protected] Date: Thursday, 21 July, 2011, 10:06 Bill, Since the Old Testament is part of Christianity. As you say, they demand obedience without question. Buddhism never asks you that, except in the case of Tantric guru, who asks you to jump from the top of a nine story buiding. But then he uses his psychic power to save you from falling flat to the ground. Wonderful religion. There is strong authority in the Pope. If he says Gospel of Thomas is heretical, it is. So Christian who follows that is up to them, but they are no longer considered Christians. I think the Protestants must have their standards. I don't know what they are. However, the Gospel seems to run counter to the absolute authority of God, whether it is for Catholic or Protestents. Anthony --- On Thu, 21/7/11, Bill! <[email protected]> wrote: From: Bill! <[email protected]> Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen elements? To: [email protected] Date: Thursday, 21 July, 2011, 9:10 AM Anthony, Some Christians certainly do consider the Gospel of Thomas, and the many other 'Gospels of ...' including the Gospel of Mary that were not selected to be included in the New Testament as heretical - but many Christians to do not. It really just depends on whether they feel a particular gospel 'speaks to them' and enhances their faith. As I've said before in a response to you, I've don't remember any quote of Jesus commanding his followers to 'obey him without question'. I do recall him asking for 'faith without question', but that's not the same thing. In the Old Testament there are many references to God the Father demanding absolute obedience. Could it be you've attributed those to Jesus by association? Anyway this is a zen forum and hopefully everyone here knows better than to give themselves over to a religion that demands 'obedience without question'. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@...> wrote: > > Bill, >  > Gospel of Thomas is considered heretical in Christianity, so Whether or not > you try to prove there are zen elements (it looks that way) does not > represent the religion that often quotes Jesus as saying he is the son of > God, who must be obeyed without question. That is not zen. >  > Regards, > Anthony > > --- On Wed, 20/7/11, Bill! <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen elements? > To: [email protected] > Date: Wednesday, 20 July, 2011, 11:06 AM > > >  > > > > Anthony, > > Jesus used the terms 'Kingdom of Heaven' and 'Kingdom of God' in many of his > teachings - especially in his parables. In some cases, like Siddartha, he > just referred to himself as the example of the Kingdom of Heaven' or what I > would call 'Buddha Mind'. Here are some examples that address your question > about whether or not Jesus taught his experience was only about something > external: > > Gospel of Thomas: > > (3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in > the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It > is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside > of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you > will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of > the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty > and it is you who are that poverty." > > (77) Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me > all came forth, and to me all attained. Split a piece of wood; I am there. > Lift up the stone, and you will find me there." > > Beyond that I don't really wish to 'show you the real zen in Christianity'. I > would much rather you discover the 'real zen' in and all around you. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > Bill, > >  > > I am not familiar with the 'Kingdom of Heaven', but it sounds like > > something outside your mind, so it is not zen. It is dualism. > >  > > As regards Buddha's proclamation that he was the only one worthy of honor, > > along with your beloved story of Buddha holding a flower on Vulture Peak, > > was cooked up by later day mahayana. That is why Unmon Zen Master wanted to > > kill, not the Buddha, but the myth that had gone the wrong way. Unmon > > is the real zen. > >  > > Show me the real zen in Christiantity. > >  > > Anthony > > > > --- On Tue, 19/7/11, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen elements? > > To: [email protected] > > Date: Tuesday, 19 July, 2011, 4:51 PM > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > For example... > > > > I believe Jesus experienced Original Mind (Buddha Mind) and described it > > has the 'Kingdom of Heaven'. His teachings describe this quite well in many > > places, but he did use the Jewish religious venacular of his time to > > express it. > > > > Christianity as a religion was something that was built on top of Jesus' > > experience and teachings. That's the religious shell that encapsulates His > > core teachings. I believe it's the same with Siddartha and Buddhism. The > > core is zen, and Buddhism is all the exteraneous stuff that was later added > > on by his followers. > > > > Jesus may have used the concept of monotheism to teach his experience of > > Oneness - just as Siddartha is supposed to have stated 'In Heaven above and > > Earth below, I alone am worthy of honor'. I'm sure Siddartha didn't mean > > he, Siddartha, was the only person worth of honor. He meant (IMO) that > > Original Mind (Buddha Mind) is the honored One. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > >  > > > How can zen be the foundation of religions that demand blind faith in > > > monodeity? > > >  > > > Anthony > > > > > > --- On Mon, 18/7/11, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen elements? > > > To: [email protected] > > > Date: Monday, 18 July, 2011, 9:40 AM > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > ED, > > > > > > DT Suzuki certainly is expressing below the results of a lot of > > > discursive thinking. > > > > > > I don't agree with all of the details of his quote below, but I do agree > > > with his central point - zen is the foundation of all. > > > > > > I consider DT Suzuki primarily a Buddhist scholar. Although he did study > > > Zen Buddhism he never received 'inca' (permission to teach) as a dharma > > > successor of any Zen master - that I know of. His books do address > > > Buddhism and Zen Buddhism from a intellectual, scholarly perspective so > > > this quote doesn't surprise me. > > > > > > He is not someone that I would look to or recommend as a great > > > communicator of zen. Buddhsim and maybe Zen Buddhism - yes; but just > > > plain old zen - no. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "ED" <seacrofter001@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi zendervish, Bill and All, > > > > > > > > DT Suzuki appears to be indulging in a lot of un-zenlike discursive > > > > thinking, no? > > > > > > > > --ED > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "salik888" <novelidea8@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Greetings > > > > > > > > This little tidbit of Buddhist Modernism throws a loop around the > > > > experience of > > > > the integral source that Sufism likewise expresses. > > > > > > > > Zen is the ultimate fact of all philosophy and religion. Every > > > > intellectual > > > > effort must culminate in it, or rather must start from it, if it is to > > > > bear any > > > > practical fruits. Every religious faith must spring from it if it has to > > > > prove > > > > at all efficiently and livingly workable in our active life. Therefore > > > > Zen is > > > > not necessarily the fountain of Buddhist thought and life alone; it is > > > > very much > > > > alive also in Christianity, Mohammedanism, in Taoism, and even > > > > positivistic > > > > Confucianism. What makes all these religions and philosophies vital and > > > > inspiring, keeping up their usefulness and efficiency, is due to the > > > > presence in > > > > them of what I may designate as the Zen element. > > > > > > > > DT Suzuki > > > > > > > > zendervish > > > > > > > > > >
