On 9/4/2012 11:14 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:
Kristopher, Well yes and no... Maybe...
If only we were all wise enough to leave it there! *L*
Everyone certainly models reality differently each in their own internal simulations of it. But in a deeper sense there is no reality except as it is experienced by some observer or other.... This is a complex subject that requires a deep understanding and more time than I have right now...
Obviously. Couldn't be simpler. The complexity is simply how this appears (literally and figuratively - same). One reality. Hence all the cautions about being fooled by appearances. Deep understanding is not required, nor does it need to be rejected. We may simply come to see via such introspection that we cannot understand anything but the depths of our delusion, such understanding thus deepening them. More story elements. Conceptualizations. Ordinary mind recognizing ordinary mind, and thus our nature. AKA - Taking the hard road, which is ironically the most popular path. Not that anyone has a choice in this. We are our 'path'. For some the way is obvious, others must find their way. Ultimately, same.
Kristopher is obviously someone who has endured much pain and suffering in his life and made considerable strides in transcending that by approaching Zen....
Platitudes? Where Joe's stick! Maybe yes, maybe no. All just story. We all have them. I'd say I've had it damn easy in this life so far. As for strides, where is it you think I'm going? What do you think I'm getting? How can anyone approach the inescapable or grasp the ungraspable? All this is nothing but your dealing with what is 'considerable'. Your considerations. Thoughts arising. Mind being mind. It is not a problem, though it can be made into one.
However, if I may respectfully say so, I detect a hint of a particular attitude towards Zen characterized by a sort of Nihilism, hopelessness and a feeling of meaninglessness in everything which really isn't Zen.
Maybe yes, maybe no. Such negativity is just a form of expression - not a position for me. One I use regularly, not to offer certainty of what isn't, but only to counter certainty of what is. It arises naturally whenever someone offers their personal definition as ultimate truth. A thorn to remove a thorn as the Advaitists say.
I have no particular personal attitude/concept/definition of 'Zen' to attack or defend. Nothing to be positive or negative about. Not seeking same. My attitude is more of amusement at those who do, and poking at them a bit. A few laugh along, most appear to take this too seriously to see the joke.
Much of the time all the talk is nothing more than a difference in expression. Pointing only to that. The dialog not so much for the two so engaged, but for those silently following along. Thus more general and less personal that it may appear.
Please don't take this as a criticism, God knows none of us is perfect, but my feeling is that since we are all on the path we do each other a favor by pointing out how we might each do better and that we should all be free and open in exchanging and receiving such insights.
To me this is simply what life is. The 'joke' in this regard is realizing this notion of perfect/imperfect is pure BS, that all are expressions of Buddha nature, realized or not. Otherwise, our delusions of doing others favors are offensive and provoke only defensiveness (and this is the stuff pointers are made of).
There is effortless realization, and there is delusional struggling. Unconditional and conditional. Each of no use without the other, each an aspect of each other. One realization.
Zen is not meaningless, hopeless, or Nihilistic. On the contrary by directly realizing and experiencing the ultimate absolute reality of all things really really here right now in the present moment it can be said to reveal the ultimate MEANINGFULNESS of things, and thus of the seeker...
Yes yes yes. Old arguments. Not 'Nihilism' and also not 'Materialism'. What can you make of this? What can be undone?
Is Zen what you say it is, or not what you say it isn't? A pointless question. Surely you can see this Zen is/Zen isn't business is all just a form of created Zennism posing as Zen. Am I negating that? Yes and No. Am I affirming that? Yes and No. Depends on your perspective. I am simply pointing to it, and laughing along.
'Meaning' is added perspective. Mostly borrowed/shared, sometimes original, yet none really insightful. Insight simply catches this in action. Such an experience can be profound, or ordinary. Whatever the form, it ultimately only reflects an aspect of this.
KG
