Bill!, Read Lao Tse. The bowl's usefulness is in its emptiness...
Edgar On Sep 5, 2012, at 8:33 AM, Bill! wrote: > --BfD3b3XoZLrm8ULEs65dKkxGL0L4HCs5O3qrWRW > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Edgar, > > Following the analogy, when you empty your bowl you find you no longer need= > a bowl. It is THEN that you can experience Buddha Nature. You do not exp= > erience Buddha Nature in the bowl. > > ...Bill!=20=20 > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: >> >> Bill! and Merle, >> =20 >> It is impossible to empty your bowl. Empty it and reality immediately ref= > ills it with Buddha Nature... >> =20 >> The bowl is ALWAYS full! >> =20 >> Edgar >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> On Sep 5, 2012, at 1:49 AM, Bill! wrote: >> =20 >>> Merle, >>> =20 >>> I forgot to respond to your second question. >>> =20 >>> You may share your bowl with others. Edgar is trying to share a lot of = > the contents of his bowl with you. The problem is when he does that the con= > tents of both of your bowls just get more full, and sooner of later if you = > want to realize Buddha Nature you're going to have to empty them - at least= > temporarily. >>> =20 >>> ...Bill! >>> =20 >>> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: >>>> >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> =C2=20 >>>> =C2 please clarify bill..does it matter the size of bowl?... is the b= > owl shared with others?...merle >>>> =C2=20=20 >>>> KG, >>>> =20 >>>> 'You' do have a choice and it is the rice that is dirtying your bowl.= > Your illusory self is the one responsible for making the choice and puttin= > g more rice in or cleaning the bowl. Your illusory self can choose one way = > or the other. >>>> =20 >>>> If you are not creating an illusory self (are manifesting Buddha Natu= > re) then yes, as you've said before, there is no bowl and there is no choic= > e to be made. >>>> =20 >>>> ...Bill! >>>> =20 >>>> --- In [email protected], Kristopher Grey <kris@> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Believing you make such a choice, is blaming the rice for dirtying = > your=20 >>>>> bowl. >>>>> =20 >>>>> KG >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> On 9/4/2012 9:05 PM, Bill! wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Merle, >>>>>> >>>>>> You are correct that reality comes with no frills, but you do hav= > e a=20 >>>>>> choice. You can choose to invent frills (illusions) and become=20 >>>>>> attached to them. Or you can choose not to do that. Choosing not = > to do=20 >>>>>> and dropping all attachments is called 'washing your bowl'...Bill= > ! >>>>>> >>>>>> --- In [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.= > com>,=20 >>>>>> Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> =C3=82 take it as it comes..no frills...you do not have a choic= > e ..merle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> =C3=82 >>>>>>> Merle, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> that's when zen is most needed mike...to get you through the d= > ay >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Should I take it straight or on the rocks? ; ) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>> From: Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> >>>>>>> To: "[email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.= > com>"=20 >>>>>> <[email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>> >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 3 September 2012, 22:31 >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> =C3=82 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> =C3=82 that's when zen is most needed mike...to get you through= > the=20 >>>>>> day...merle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ultimately, yes - in day to day living, no. At least not in the= > =20 >>>>>> story of my life. It's so easy to claim Buddhahood when things ar= > e=20 >>>>>> going well, but just watch that little house of cards coming cras= > hing=20 >>>>>> down when you get a nasty hemorrhoids on a hot, sweaty day or you= > r=20 >>>>>> girlfriend cheats on you. That's why even something as simple as = > being=20 >>>>>> mindful of the breath can be the most difficult thing in the worl= > d in=20 >>>>>> such circumstances. You can philosophise your way out of it here = > quite=20 >>>>>> easily, but meanwhile back in the real world [insert exegesis on = > 'real=20 >>>>>> world' here].. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>> From: Kristopher Grey <kris@> >>>>>>> To: [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.c= > om> >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 3 September 2012, 1:34 >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> =C3=82 >>>>>>> This matter of whether there is or isn't isn't someone to suffe= > r is=20 >>>>>> all smoke and mirrors. Suffering appears. This is clear enough. W= > hat=20 >>>>>> is this notion of "liberation from" but self relating to self? Wh= > at=20 >>>>>> appears, appears. What of it? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Clarity, selfless. No self that need to see into itself. No suc= > h >>>>>>> conceptual contortions required. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Don't settle for nothing. Don't attach to anything. This takes = > no >>>>>>> effort. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> KG >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 9/2/2012 5:35 PM, mike brown wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> =C3=82 >>>>>>>> Kris, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There is no one who suffers, but only after the realisation th= > at=20 >>>>>> there isn't even a mind for suffering to happen to is there liber= > ation=20 >>>>>> from it. "Clarity" here reads as insight. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>> From: Kristopher Grey <kris@> >>>>>>>> To: [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.= > com> >>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 20:23 >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> =C3=82 >>>>>>>> Then you still know too much. ;) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If it so clear as that, there is nothing to >>>>>>> see. The 'obscuration' all that may show the >>>>>>> way. What you are seeing as separate only >>>>>>> appears to be. All a matter of how you see it. >>>>>>> So who is leading who? Who suffers? In seeking >>>>>>> perfection, it forever eludes. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The clear minded are equally empty headed. >>>>>>> Don't throw the Buddha out with the bathwater. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> KG >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> PS - Expresses simpler/more obviously >>>>>>> wordlessly - see: 'Wabi Sabi' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W= > abi-sabi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 9/2/2012 12:32 PM, mike brown wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> =C3=82 >>>>>>>>> Kris, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less reali= > ty=20 >>>>>> than apparent clarity >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Reality is certainly there regardless, but >>>>>>> reality seen with obscuration leads to >>>>>>> suffering, whereas reality seen with >>>>>>> clarity will lead to the cessation of >>>>>>> suffering. That's all I need to know and >>>>>>> that is my witness.=C3=82 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>>> From: Kristopher Grey <kris@> >>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups= > .com> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 16:11 >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> =C3=82 >>>>>>>>> I might point out that apparent obscuration is no less realit= > y=20 >>>>>> than apparent clarity. In doing so, this point only dances around= > =20 >>>>>> itself - offers nothing you can't realize directly. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What can anyone say in >>>>>>> response that you will not >>>>>>> directly experience (realize) >>>>>>> as some aspect of this >>>>>>> reality/realization- whether >>>>>>> you realize it or not - just >>>>>>> as when experiencing >>>>>>> meditation/not meditation? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This more or less business is >>>>>>> you triangulating your >>>>>>> position. Nothing more, >>>>>>> nothing less. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> KG >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 9/2/2012 5:57 AM, mike >>>>>>> brown wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> =C3=82 >>>>>>>>>> Edgar, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Wouldn't you say tho, that reality is less obscured during, = > or=20 >>>>>> just after, a long retreat of meditation? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> >>>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroup= > s.com> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 1:13 >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> =C3=82 >>>>>>>>>> Mike, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Well, it's reality either way, but that reality is always=20 >>>>>> changing as happening continually flows through the present momen= > t.=20 >>>>>> But however it changes it is still reality.... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Edgar >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:09 PM, mike brown wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> =C3=82 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Edgar, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Would you say that the world (inner/outer) you look at now = > is=20 >>>>>> the same as when you're at the end of a sesshin? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> >>>>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogrou= > ps.com> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2012, 18:44 >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> =C3=82 >>>>>>>>>>> ED, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Edgar >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:22 PM, ED wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> =C3=82 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Edgar, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Therefore, >>>>>>> although each >>>>>>> of us is >>>>>>> complete, we >>>>>>> need to >>>>>>> practice >>>>>>>>>>>> diligently at >>>>>>> all times with >>>>>>> no objective >>>>>>> in mind? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> --ED >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> --- In [email protected]=20 >>>>>> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wro= > te: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Joe and >>>>>>> Merle, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> There is >>>>>>> no 'goal' of >>>>>>> enlightenment >>>>>>> to be achieved >>>>>>> without which >>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>> imagine you >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> incomplete.... >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> There is >>>>>>> no >>>>>>> incompleteness. >>>>>>> This >>>>>>> understanding >>>>>>> is an >>>>>>> essential >>>>>>> aspect >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>> realization... >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Wham! >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Edgar >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! 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