Mike, This was part of my Japanese Zen Buddhist teaching also. I misspoke a little in my previous statement. I said 'we were encouraged...' I should have said 'we were allowed...' or 'we were not forbidden...'. We WERE 'encouraged' to 'sit through the pain', but there was no stigma put on a person because they chose not to do that. Sitting in a chair was perfectly acceptable. Also the Japanese have little, low 'stools' that can be used to sit on while 'kneeling'.
I've always thought this was the case because my teachers though it was important to begin and learn how to sit without too much discomfort. I also think most Westerners cannot sit like Asians for long periods of time. I don't know if this is actually a skeletal difference or just a because culturally we sit in chairs and not cross-legged or in a squat position on the floor. Even at the best of times I could NEVER sit full-lotus. I had to have someone help me configure my legs like that and it was excruciating and I thought could quickly damage my knees. I saw most of the time in half-lotus, and even then my topo leg would quickly 'go to sleep' and after 30-mins or so I could not feel it or walk on it at all for many minutes. I now sit cross-legged, and change top/bottom (outside/inside) legs after each session. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@...> wrote: > > Bill!, > > There are many different reasons why practioners from different traditions > sit on their cushions. In Vipassana, we stay with the discomfort to see into > how and the body affects the mind. If we constantly rearrange our sitting > position when we experience discomfort, we miss the opportunity to see how > dukkha (dissatisfaction) operates. That's one of the great things about > mindfulness - we can go deeply into phenomena to see the 3 Characteristics > (impermanence, dukkha, no-self) in operation. Sitting thru discomfort > (dis-ease) is a great tool. > > Mike > > > > ________________________________ > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2012, 2:37 > Subject: [Zen] Re: suffering > > >  > JMJM, et al... > > My initial teachers encouraged me to switch legs, rock back and forth, > stand up and walk around and even use different postures, (full-lotus, > half-lotus, cross-legged, kneeling and even just sitting on a chair - as long > as whatever posture I used allowed me to breathe freely and deeply. That > requires at least an erect back to allow for 'belly breathing' (breathing by > using the diaphragm instead of the chest or shoulders). Of course if we were > sitting with a group we were encouraged not to change legs or do anything > overt which might bother others. Our sitting sessions were usually 20-40 > mins, then a 5-min break, and then another session. We would sit 3 sessions > like that. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], 覺å¦â¢Ã§Â²Â¾Ã¦ËŽ ï¼ËJMJMï¼Ⱐ> <chan.jmjm@> wrote: > > > > If I may add to this... > > > > My teacher asks us "avoid switching legs during sitting..." In other > > words, it is for training our mind to be detached from our physical > > body. Because, the physical body is our first hindrance to > > enlightenment. Then there is the hindrance of our mind and hindrance of > > our spirit to surpass next... Not hard. Right? :-) > > > > > > On 9/11/2012 4:33 PM, mike brown wrote: > > > ED, > > > > > > I can't talk about zazen, but in Vipassana, pain is something we're > > > taught to welcome (within reason) because it's a good tool to teach us > > > insight into impermanence, suffering and an impersonal self. I can > > > honestly say that sitting without moving for an hour, or more, > > > sometimes creates the most intense pain I have ever suffered in my > > > life! The only time I've found that pain is completely alleviated is > > > when I've entered into the jhanas. This is no exaggeration. I've gone > > > from the most intense white-hot pain to the most ecstatic bliss in an > > > instant. Of course, and here's the lesson, this state passes and the > > > pain comes back once more. A valuable lesson in the arising and > > > passing of phenomena that is way beyond just an intellectual > > > understanding. > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > *From:* ED <seacrofter001@> > > > *To:* [email protected] > > > *Sent:* Tuesday, 11 September 2012, 15:16 > > > *Subject:* [Zen] Re: suffering > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill! and Mike, > > > > > > Is it not the case that zazen or vipasana can also help alleviate pain? > > > > > > --ED > > > > > > --- In [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, > > > "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > I am also 66! > > > > > > > > I'm about to give you some of my definitions of terms and they're > > > pretty 'tough-love' definitions so be warned... > > > > > > > > Pain is NOT suffering. Pain is pain. Suffering is feeling sorry for > > > yourself (your self) because perhaps you're in pain and that does not > > > meet up with your expectations and disappoints you. > > > > > > > > You do not have to suffer. > > > > > > > > The best example I know of this is a 3-legged dog. I'm sure you've > > > seen many of them. They aren't suffering because (I presume) they don't > > > have a strong 'mental model' of 'self'. They don't feel sorry for > > > themselves. They don't compare themselves to other dogs. They just make > > > do with what they've got. I've seen dogs with only 2 legs and they don't > > > act any differently than those with 4. You could be a little > > > condescending and say 'they don't know any better' - when actually you > > > should be just saying 'they don't know' - and good for them. > > > > > > > > Contrast that with a human who has lost a leg. Many such humans will > > > suffer. They'll wonder 'why me'? 'What did I do to deserve this?' And be > > > envious of full-bodied humans who can do more and have more than they. > > > Why? Because they DO have a strong 'mental model' of 'self' and have > > > expectations of what life SHOULD be like, and do compare themselves with > > > others. Their life is not like others (the majority) and this > > > disappoints them so they suffer. > > > > > > > > Zazen can help... > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! 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