Merle, >...it's the real world out there..
...which is experienced and interpreted 'in the real world in here'. There's no escape by being on retreat, Your bladder infection still exists on retreat, as does any aspect of your world "out there". You just get a better chance on retreat to see how you process these problems by going deeper into their causes and why you suffer from them. It's hard work, but a real privilege to be on retreat. Mike ________________________________ From: Merle Lester <[email protected]> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, 13 September 2012, 6:02 Subject: Re: [Zen] the real world and zen power mike ..i am not knocking it.... but at the end of the day... it's the real world out there.....i who thought of becoming a nun once back in my youth... merle I must second this. I have saved an email from you Mike where in you ask some tormenter if they do not find the world a bit cleaner after a sesshin (part of the endless words on polishing vs. ceasing). I have not replied because this is the crux; why do we practice when everything is complete as it is. Too funny but still. I have the sort of live where I generally enjoy the retreat quite a lot, nothing as hard for me as semi-sincere and semi-aware parenting (alas that one must see one's flaws as a parent, the gap between preference and reality, in order to be a decent parent), but they definitely make things easier; if not by insight at least by spaciousness. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Sep 12, 2012, at 15:49, mike brown <[email protected]> wrote: Merle, > > >Have you never been on a retreat? It's a great way to be free of the day to >day distractions which prevent us from going really deep within ourselves. >It's certainly not an escape from the world and can be one of the most >difficult and challenging times we can experience. But the insights we can get >from it, which might not be possible with our busy schedules, help us to deal >with the stuff everyday life throws at us. Don't knock it til you try it! : ) > > >Mike > > > >________________________________ > From: Merle Lester <[email protected]> >To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2012, 23:07 >Subject: [Zen] the real world and zen power > > > > > > ..if you sit around meditating all day...just as some folk in other religions >pray/ chant all day then "nothing " is happening to upset the apple cart so to >speak.... going out in the real world...facing it...that's when the "trouble " >starts...that's when you need the "tools of survival" to get through the day.. >.reality dawns >and reality can be a" bag of allsorts" as you all well know >that's when you need the" zen power" to get you through the day! >merle > > > >JM, > > >>Serious practitioners were asked to sit at least one hour without moving. >>Mark Troxell, the one recently was transmitted with Buddha Heart Imprint was >>told to meditate FOUR hours a day, I was told. Yak.. > > >Just out of interest, here's a schedule for a Vipassana retreat. >Compulsory/not compulsory just means that you can meditate in your own room or >in the main hall. You can see that there is a minimum of 10 hours a day >meditation over 10 days - ALL conducted in Noble silence with no reading or >writing material, music, books or cell phones etc. > > > >4:00 – 04:30 Get Up & Take a Shower >04:30 – 06:30 Meditation in the Main Hall (not compulsory) >06:30 – 08:00 Breakfast & Rest >08:00 – 10:00 Group Meditation in Hall (compulsory) >10:00 – 11:00 Meditation in Hall (usually compulsory) >11:00 – 13:00 Lunch & Rest >13:00 – 14:30 Meditation in Hall (not compulsory) >14:30 – 17:00 Meditation in Hall (compulsory) >17:00 – 18:00 Tea-time >18:00 – 19:00 Meditation in Hall (compulsory) >19:00 – 20:20 Goenka Discourse Video >20:30 – 21:00 Meditation in Hall (compulsory) >21:00 – 22:00 Shower & Rest >22:00 Lights Out > > >A pretty intense schedule, but a great opportunity be free of the usual daily >distractions in order to go deep into the mind. > > >Mike > > > > > > > > >________________________________ > From: 覺妙精明 （JMJM） <[email protected]> >To: [email protected] >Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2012, 7:15 >Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: suffering > > > >Let me add to this... Surpass all comfort zone, all the knowledge, all the >basis, in short everything, is the key to Chan. > >Our minimum requirement is half lotus. Most of the serious practitioners do full lotus. I do, because full lotus on the floor, opens up all the meridians near the hip and the legs, so that our body can be in tip top shape. > >Serious practitioners were asked to sit at least one hour without moving. Mark Troxell, the one recently was transmitted with Buddha Heart Imprint was told to meditate FOUR hours a day, I was told. Yak.. > >jm > > > >On 9/11/2012 7:45 PM, mike brown wrote: > > >>Bill!, >> >> >>There are many different reasons why practioners from different traditions >>sit on their cushions. In Vipassana, we stay with the discomfort to see into >>how and the body affects the mind. If we constantly rearrange our sitting >>position when we experience discomfort, we miss the opportunity to see how >>dukkha (dissatisfaction) operates. That's one of the great things about >>mindfulness - we can go deeply into phenomena to see the 3 Characteristics >>(impermanence, dukkha, no-self) in operation. Sitting thru discomfort >>(dis-ease) is a great tool. >> >> >>Mike >> >> >> >> >>________________________________ >> From: Bill! <[email protected]> >>To: [email protected] >>Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2012, 2:37 >>Subject: [Zen] Re: suffering >> >> >> >>JMJM, et al... >> >>My initial teachers encouraged me to switch legs, rock back and forth, stand up and walk around and even use different postures, (full-lotus, half-lotus, cross-legged, kneeling and even just sitting on a chair - as long as whatever posture I used allowed me to breathe freely and deeply. That requires at least an erect back to allow for 'belly breathing' (breathing by using the diaphragm instead of the chest or shoulders). Of course if we were sitting with a group we were encouraged not to change legs or do anything overt which might bother others. Our sitting sessions were usually 20-40 mins, then a 5-min break, and then another session. We would sit 3 sessions like that. >> >>...Bill! >> >>--- In [email protected], 覺妙精明 （JMJM） <chan.jmjm@...> >>wrote: >>> >>> If I may add to this... >>> >>> My teacher asks us "avoid switching legs during sitting..." In other >>> words, it is for training our mind to be detached from our physical >>> body. Because, the physical body is our first hindrance to >>> enlightenment. Then there is the hindrance of our mind and hindrance of >>> our spirit to surpass next... Not hard. Right? :-) >>> >>> >>> On 9/11/2012 4:33 PM, mike brown wrote: >>> > ED, >>> > >>> > I can't talk about zazen, but in Vipassana, pain is something we're >>> > taught to welcome (within reason) because it's a good tool to teach us >>> > insight into impermanence, suffering and an impersonal self. I can >>> > honestly say that sitting without moving for an hour, or more, >>> > sometimes creates the most intense pain I have ever suffered in my >>> > life! The only time I've found that pain is completely alleviated is >>> > when I've entered into the jhanas. This is no exaggeration. I've gone >>> > from the most intense white-hot pain to the most ecstatic bliss in an >>> > instant. Of course, and here's the lesson, this state passes and the >>> > pain comes back once more. A valuable lesson in the arising and >>> > passing of phenomena that is way beyond just an intellectual >>> > understanding. >>> > >>> > Mike >>> > >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------- >>> > *From:* ED <seacrofter001@...> >>> > *To:* [email protected] >>> > *Sent:* Tuesday, 11 September 2012, 15:16 >>> > *Subject:* [Zen] Re: suffering >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Bill! and Mike, >>> > >>> > Is it not the case that zazen or vipasana can also help alleviate pain? >>> > >>> > --ED >>> > >>> > --- In [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, >>> > "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: >>> > > >>> > > Merle, >>> > > >>> > > I am also 66! >>> > > >>> > > I'm about to give you some of my definitions of terms and they're >>> > pretty 'tough-love' definitions so be warned... >>> > > >>> > > Pain is NOT suffering. Pain is pain. Suffering is feeling sorry for >>> > yourself (your self) because perhaps you're in pain and that does not >>> > meet up with your expectations and disappoints you. >>> > > >>> > > You do not have to suffer. >>> > > >>> > > The best example I know of this is a 3-legged dog. I'm sure you've >>> > seen many of them. They aren't suffering because (I presume) they don't >>> > have a strong 'mental model' of 'self'. They don't feel sorry for >>> > themselves. They don't compare themselves to other dogs. They just make >>> > do with what they've got. I've seen dogs with only 2 legs and they don't >>> > act any differently than those with 4. You could be a little >>> > condescending and say 'they don't know any better' - when actually you >>> > should be just saying 'they don't know' - and good for them. >>> > > >>> > > Contrast that with a human who has lost a leg. Many such humans will >>> > suffer. They'll wonder 'why me'? 'What did I do to deserve this?' And be >>> > envious of full-bodied humans who can do more and have more than they. >>> > Why? Because they DO have a strong 'mental model' of 'self' and have >>> > expectations of what life SHOULD be like, and do compare themselves with >>> > others. Their life is not like others (the majority) and this >>> > disappoints them so they suffer. >>> > > >>> > > Zazen can help... >>> > > >>> > > ...Bill! >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > >
