Edgar, Action is indeed not inconsistent with zen.
What I and I believe KG are trying to point out is most everything you've talked about concerning the environment is based on a human-centric point of view. So when you throw around terms like 'interfering' and telling us to 'grow up', my only response back to you would be 'grow out' - expand your perspective...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > KG, > > Your notion that nothing can be done to save the planet is dangerous and > mistaken. There are many who are working diligently including myself. To what > extent it succeeds remains to be seen. > > Zen is not equivalent to hopelessness, inaction and nihilism as you imply. > That's a serious Western misconception. Action can be done with Zen quite > effectively... Action is NOT inconsistent with Zen. > > Edgar > > > > On Oct 10, 2012, at 10:59 PM, Kristopher Grey wrote: > > > > > I never said a wit about OK/not OK. That's your judgement. > > > > I simply find the very premise, as you lay it out, to be formed of the same > > destructive impulse to control. > > > > I might say planetary scale destruction is inevitable, as that appears a > > logical albeit pointless conclusion, but I certainly don't claim to know > > so. Nor do I have reason to be concerned in the way you appear to be. > > Righteous indignation may feel good, but it's not a prerequisite for > > action. It only acts to spins the wheel. > > > > KG > > > > > > > > On 10/10/2012 7:35 PM, Edgar Owen wrote: > >> > >> Merle, > >> > >> > >> Yes, KG seems obsessively attached to this discussion and why destroying > >> the planet is OK... > >> :-) > >> > >> Edgar > >> > >> > >> > >> On Oct 10, 2012, at 5:56 PM, Merle Lester wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> hey hey lads...settle down..calm please!...KG your loosing the > >>> pulse..merle > >>> > >>> > >>> Yes, yes. That you hold a great many things to be of high importance is > >>> obvious to all but you. Thus you assume others are are talking about such > >>> things, and assume they are ignorant of same, when they are only talking > >>> about your ignorant attachments to these forms of divisive thinking. > >>> > >>> KG > >>> > >>> On 10/10/2012 11:27 AM, Edgar Owen wrote: > >>>> > >>>> KG, > >>>> > >>>> I find it appalling you support the destruction of the planet by humans > >>>> and attack those who argue against it... > >>>> > >>>> The lowest of the low... > >>>> > >>>> Edgar > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Oct 10, 2012, at 10:52 AM, Kristopher Grey wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Definitive dependency - in other words you frame this in a > >>>>> self-supporting way. The way a child argues when trying to sound all > >>>>> grown up. You might as well just say: > >>>>> > >>>>> "You are a stupid baby! Stop being such a stupid baby!" *L* > >>>>> > >>>>> No one is denying 'reality' but you Edgar. You are perverting others > >>>>> words to fit your preconceptions. You frame things as being out of > >>>>> control/needing to be controlled - which is the very divisive attitude > >>>>> that causes all the shit you find so wrong in the world. > >>>>> > >>>>> Opposition distracts. > >>>>> > >>>>> KG > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On 10/10/2012 6:47 AM, Edgar Owen wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Bill, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> By your perverted logic it is totally OK for man to be destroying the > >>>>>> planet because that's just a natural process. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Grow up and get real. Zen is not clever sophisms, it's reality... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Edgar > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Oct 10, 2012, at 6:20 AM, Bill! wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Edgar, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> What's REALLY important is that it's been framed wrong. It's been > >>>>>>> framed as humans vs. nature, or as you put it humans > >>>>>>> 'interfering' in nature. As > >>>>>>> long as humans think they are not part of nature and taht all their > >>>>>>> action are natural there will be this problem. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> When a beaver builds a dam is that interfering with nature? When a > >>>>>>> squirrel shits in the woods is that interfering with nature? When a > >>>>>>> human splits an atom is that interfering with nature? When a human > >>>>>>> manipulates DNA is that interfering with nature? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> What is the quality that humans have that other animals don't have > >>>>>>> that renders them capable of interference - IYO? (I just > >>>>>>> made that up, IYO = 'in > >>>>>>> your opinion') > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ...Bill! > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > Come on Bill. > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > In human discourse about Man's impact on nature, that's the way > >>>>>>> > it's defined, and the whole issue is framed, as you well know... > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > Edgar > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > On Oct 9, 2012, at 8:45 PM, Bill! wrote: > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > Edgar, > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > This was a VERY SERIOUS response. > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > Why is it that you think the things that humans do are > >>>>>>> > > 'unnatural' or against nature but the things that other life does > >>>>>>> > > is > >>>>>>> > > 'natural' and okay? A friend of mine very wisely (IMO)once > >>>>>>> > > suggested that all ethics should be applied to humans and other > >>>>>>> > > life forms equally. > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > What is the quality that you believe separates humans from the > >>>>>>> > > rest of nature so that human activities and artifacts can > >>>>>>> > > be labeled as > >>>>>>> > > 'interference'? > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > ...Bill! > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > > > Joe, > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > > > Come on, it's a serious issue... > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > > > Edgar > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > > > On Oct 9, 2012, at 11:26 AM, Joe wrote: > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > Edgar, > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > And Humans are just the tip of the iceberg, too. > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > I don't know why plants and animals insist on interfering > >>>>>>> > > > > with the way Nature works. > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > For example, on the early earth there was a nice atmosphere > >>>>>>> > > > > without oxygen. But blasted Cyanobacteria evolved which like > >>>>>>> > > > > to sip the methane and other gases there were back then, and > >>>>>>> > > > > started polluting the atmosphere with ...Oxygen! > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > Then -- wouldn't you know -- other organisms formed which > >>>>>>> > > > > turned CO2 into even MORE Oxygen, with a help from light from > >>>>>>> > > > > the Sun. The nerve! They got away with it, though, because > >>>>>>> > > > > there were no Police. The rug was pulled out from under > >>>>>>> > > > > Nature yet again! > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > Later, some animals evolved, which USE the oxygen. > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > Much later, some of these animals of the Mammal variety > >>>>>>> > > > > called "Beavers" began to INSIST that they interfere with the > >>>>>>> > > > > stately FLOW of river tributaries and streams, by ...damming > >>>>>>> > > > > them up! Such nerve. You may be sure that this caused > >>>>>>> > > > > inundations upstream, and occasional floods downstream when > >>>>>>> > > > > the dams burst. Havoc. Bye, bye, Nature! > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > The nerve of these organisms: Micro-organisms, Plants, and > >>>>>>> > > > > Animals. Always interfering with the way Nature works! > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > At least on the Moon there is no such interference, there's > >>>>>>> > > > > just a continual, thin, rain of meteorites pummeling the > >>>>>>> > > > > surface, > >>>>>>> > > > > and no atmosphere to make things rust. > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > Oops!, some exotic Mammals left some footprints on the Moon, > >>>>>>> > > > > and some machinery, during the last fifty years. WHY must > >>>>>>> > > > > there always be such interference? The Moon had been Nature's > >>>>>>> > > > > nice, quiet, haven for rock and dust for so long. Why must > >>>>>>> > > > > things always go downhill? > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > --Joe > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > On 10/7/2012 9:26 PM, Edgar Owen wrote: > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Why do humans always insist on interfering with the way > >>>>>>> > > > > > > nature works? > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! 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