Edgar, Edgar, Edgar... Thoughts are not experienced. Only sentient qualities are experienced: touch, sight, hearing, smell and taste - and these categories are actually bogus because they are really one just one - Buddha Nature. Thoughts are not real, they are illusory. They have no 'true nature'.
One of the definitions of 'illusion' is 'not real'. Since you put such a premium on understanding, what part about the phrase 'not real' don't you understand? ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill, > > If thoughts were not experienced they would not exist. They do exist, > therefor they are experience... Therefore they are reality, but only > experienced so when their true nature is realized. > > Edgar > > > > On Nov 28, 2012, at 9:48 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > Edgar, > > > > I have repeatedly stated that Buddha Nature is the direct, sensual > > experience of reality; and have occasionally followed that up with the > > caveat that the qualifiers 'direct', 'sensual' and even 'of reality' are > > really not necessary. Buddha Nature is indeed just experience; but thoughts > > are not experience. Thoughts are mental constructs and are therefore > > illusory. > > > > Thanks for helping me clear this point up with you...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > Well Bill, even by your line of reasoning Buddha Nature has nothing to do > > > with "sensual" experience. It's just experience, the totality of ALL > > > experience, which is prior to any categorization into "sensual" or > > > non-sensual. > > > > > > As I explained a couple of days ago (and thought you had seen the light > > > and agreed) the primacy of experience also includes the experience you > > > label as "thought" so that too must be realized as an aspect of > > > experience and thus a part of Buddha Nature. > > > > > > Ah well, we Boddhisattvas don't always get our message through, but at > > > least we stick to our vows and try! > > > :-) > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 28, 2012, at 7:53 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > Edgar and Joe, > > > > > > > > I see no 'zen parable' in this discussion. > > > > > > > > The line of reasoning you described below is your intellect at work, > > > > not Buddha Nature. This might be a good illustration of how ALL > > > > intellectual activity creates illusions, but there is no comparison or > > > > reference at all to Buddha Nature. > > > > > > > > You're conclusive declaration that "Proper realization of the true > > > > nature of things depends on clear and well informed thought!" is > > > > poppycock. If by the phrase 'realization of the true nature of things' > > > > you mean realizing Buddha Nature then thought, well-informed or not, is > > > > not a factor at all. Buddha Nature is realized solely through sensual > > > > experience. > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > > > > > I don't think vibrations would be a problem with my house since it's > > > > > constructed of the massive I bars used to construct skyscrapers > > > > > welded together. Heat from the roof might be but I tend to keep the > > > > > house at pretty much ambient air temperature anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This BTW is a good Zen parable for you. What you imagine is real and > > > > > true DEPENDS entirely upon your unrecognized assumptions which MAY > > > > > NOT be true! > > > > > > > > > > Your assumption that my house was of the usual American ticky tacky > > > > > construction was not correct. Thus your deduction of a further aspect > > > > > of the 'true nature of things' was not correct.... > > > > > > > > > > Proper realization of the true nature of things depends on clear and > > > > > well informed thought! > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 28, 2012, at 1:45 AM, Joe wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > > > You know, vibrations in and of the house will spoil any views with > > > > > > the telescope, unless you have the telescope mount isolated from > > > > > > the house structure upon its own concrete, masonry, or metal pier > > > > > > which runs to an independent foundation, not touching any of the > > > > > > house, nor house foundation. > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, several of the formal namings I've made of asteroids I've > > > > > > discovered during searches for Earth-Approaching asteroids could be > > > > > > of interest to members of this Group: > > > > > > > > > > > > Haiku > > > > > > Samadhi > > > > > > Suiseki > > > > > > Wabi-Sabi > > > > > > > > > > > > (I leave off their permanent catalog numbers for convenience) > > > > > > > > > > > > I've named minor planets for lots of musicians, too, but none of > > > > > > these bear overtly on our topic. > > > > > > > > > > > > My comet discoveries are all automatically named for the discoverer > > > > > > by default, whether I like it or not. ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > Full Moon should be quite close to Jupiter, maybe closest on about > > > > > > 28 Nov, 23:15 UTC, at moonrise time in NJ. Others around the world > > > > > > will see it when they see it! > > > > > > > > > > > > --Joe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW I have a 14" Meade telescope though viewing here is > > > > > > > > somewhat obstructed by all the trees around. I've thought of > > > > > > > > putting it on a platform on top of my house which would greatly > > > > > > > > improving viewing even with the addition of some heat > > > > > > > > distortion but haven't gotten around to it... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! 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