Dear Joe, Thanks for the suggestion to take up the job of Bodhisattva
It means you have not observed your life closely. When great people like Ramana Maharishi states that this world is illusion, it has to be understood as illusion. What he mean illusion is there is no individual `self', so all whatever is happening is according to `god'. So it follows certain rules, that is `karma' or newton's laws of motion. Even Buddha preaches `Dhamma pada' which means whatever is happening is according to the rules created by god. Just look at heavenly bodies how they follow certain rules like Newton's law of motion, similarly life on this earth follows certain similar laws. So there is no individual `self', and hence no free will, and hence this world declared as illusion. If there is free will, then it is not illusion, but in the eyes of enlightened soul it is an illusion it means it is illusion and hence no free will and only "karma" or `Dhamma pada' or simply `Rules'. Now let me look into my own life and analyse. Who am I before birth? Did I wish to born? Did I wish to born to the parents to those whom I was born to? Did I wish to drink milk from my mother or it is due to my hunger I drank milk? Did my parents asked me what cloth should I wear when I was child? Did I wish to urinate? Did I wish to go motion? Did I wish to eat? Is it my option to stop eating when I was child? Let me come to 10th standard stage until then I have more or less no freedom. Now at 10th standard did I wish to join 10+2? Did I wish to choose science subjects? It was my brother and teachers advised to choose science group. Again after 10+2 did I wish to join B.Sc-Physics? I did not score enough marks to go to Engineering, so my brother advised to choose physics in BSc. After B.Sc. did I choose to go to Merchant Navy? It was my uncle who had convinced my parents to put in Merchant Navy. I have loved three girls in different time and wanted to marry, did that happen? After marriage I wanted to postpone children? My wife was asking do you have any problem (medical) why postpone. So go ahead and give birth to autism child. Then after 4.5 years she wanted to have another child. I told her 'we have special child, this itself is difficult to manage, how can we think of another one.' But she said 'second child may be normal'. Her mother from phone advises her that may be I will run away from her since she gave birth to a special child, it is better she should have one more child, so that I will not run away. So we got 2nd child and we come to know he also has autism after 3 years. I am tired if someone states there is free will? It is utter stupidity to tell there is free will. What is habit? Can anyone tell? It is again an impulse? Good or bad why an impulse to do anything? Why there is impulsive thinking? Why there is no freedom from thinking? Just take an example of going to sleep. You lie down and you don't get sleep. Until few years back, if I think about sex activity I will fall asleep. But now a days sex has no power over me, it does not interest to me. So I chant god's name, but again it is making me tired soon, so again change. Then yesterday I realized it is not what I think matters, but this forced impulse or this impatience in me to be looked into. An unrest within our self, we can't able to relax in the now, the present moment. Why? Why this agitation? This is what `karma' is. The imbalance in us is due to past karma. I am sure the earlier generation was much more peaceful than us. Similarly the one generation before. So if we look in the earlier life on this earth, they would have been one with nature, totally at peace, like Adam and eve. So when this Adam and eve (for example I am using these words) disturbed this peace by eating apples of intelligent tree which was forbidden by the god, the karma began. The Karma become worst net of cause and effect, and hence very very rare precious soul escape from it such as enlightened souls like Ramana Maharishi, and hence free will has no play. Hence this world is called `leela' of god. In `leela' of god, only god's will functions and hence no free will of individual can function. Hence our great saints declared world is `leela' of god or maya. Best wishes Suresh --- In [email protected], "Joe" wrote: > > Suresh, > > The Buddha was "the" Buddha, yes; and he taught in various distinct ways over > his teaching career. > > Tha Arahat is one paradigm and paragon of awakening. The Bodhisattva is > another. > > In the Bodhisattva's case, the role of the awakened person as it is > emphasized in the Buddhadharma is to save others by awakening them. > > Thus the Bodhisattva has perhaps considerably more contact with the ways and > wiles of the world, and correspondingly less familiarity with the jungle, as > the Theravadins in Sri Lanka. In the world, one meets many more people than > in the jungle, and, in the marketplace there are many influences which might > make the mind move. > > But the Bodhisattva continues practice and can usually remain awake. And it > has been noted that it is rather the exception that a Bodhisattva does not > undergo SEVERAL awakenings in a lifetime. That this is possible (and actual) > should show you that not everyone's case is the same as Shakyamuni's, who is > reputed to have awakened once and only once. > > But we shall never know, and this is good. It is not Shakyamuni's awakening > which interests us! > > You're right that my lifetime experience so far with Zen practice and in zen > practice circles has colored my approach to practice as well as my > appreciation of the Buddhadharma. > > Note, too, that in a Zen discussion group, this is the material we discuss. > > By the way, in the Zen sect, a very common expression is that Buddha > "himself" is still practicing somewhere. In other words, even Shakyamuni > Buddha's work is not done. > > Thus, it was not done while he was alive, either. > > Please, please, keep in mind that utterances in and within the Zen sect are > not meant to criticize nor to compliment: they are meant to spur us to > action, specifically, to practice, in order to awaken. > > We do not put "The Buddha" on a pedestal! (...although we place a statue of a > buddha on the altar in order to exemplify the perfected POSTURE of equanimous > Samadhi) > > In fact, we say, "If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha!" > > In the Zen sect, words are goads, not gods. They are used compassionately, > and spring from wisdom. > > Recognize, please, that holding a reverence for the Buddha, or for the > singularity and "uniqueness" of Buddha, is in fact an obstruction to practice. > > WHOSE practice? Our practice. YOUR practice. That is the ONLY practice > which matters! The Buddha does not enter into it. > > In the Zen sect, the Buddha is likened to ...sorry... the Buddha is likened > to "...a dried shit-wiping stick". > > Some would say, not even dried. > > The harm done by ignorant and mechanical reverence for the Buddha is the same > as the harm done among people who "revere" Einstein: they suppose that only a > "genius" can understand Nature, or penetrate the traces left by Einstein, and > so they do not themselves "dare" approach the material he worked on. What a > terrible loss! A crime! > > A sincere student or working scientist knows that this is adolescent > nonsense, and that all one need do is to BEGIN, and to continue! > > It is the same with Practice, Suresh. And whether you have been "at" it for > a long time or for a short time, practiced is never finished. Awakening is a > beginning. > > If you are comforted by an outlook of real job-security, this is a bright > prospect for the career of a Bodhisattva! ;-) > > Best, > > --Joe > > PS By the way, please don't call my post an "argument". It is not. I > usually only write from my perspective and experience, and I don't reason > things out, nor attempt to arouse conviction in anyone. Only experience can > instill conviction. > > > SURESH JAGADEESAN wrote: > > > > Dear Joe, > > > > I agree to your argument to some extent, but still I have doubts. > > > > Joe: In the awakened state, karma and free will are moot, and do not > > operate. Yet, if we slide backward from the awakened state, and fall > > into delusion even a bit, karma (our previous conditioning, > > mind-habits, and the past and future results of these) will again > > influence us, and we will find that our behavior is not in accord with > > the Precepts any longer. - One must still practice in order to remain > > awake. > > > > Suresh: Buddha himself states that Siddhartha was died long time back > > and no one had noticed it. It means in the moment of awakening to > > Buddhahood, the Siddhartha died, again it means his mind is totally > > died and never to born. In your statement you state that the awakened > > one can fall back if he doesn't practice. If one can fall back means > > he is not an enlightened one. A Buddha cannot fall back. > > > > Ramana Maharishi states that a guru is person who continuously abides > > in self, no one and no situation can change his state of being one > > with self. > > > > It looks like you are talking about your state; you seem deluded in > > your misunderstanding of Buddhahood. You are not open. You are glued > > to zen and feel superior over others in this forum since you have long > > practice of zen. This long practice itself seems hindrance to be fully > > awakened as Buddha. It is the problem of following something. > > J.Krishnamurti states that divine is pathless land. > > > > So my dear Joe, please be alert from your zen practice. > > > > Joe: But, now, free will is not "real", as karma is not "real". > > > > Suresh: Please note free will is not real. But' karma' is real. Karma > > is real as long as you consider yourself as body. Even if you see > > yourself as pure consciousness / self / Buddhahood, the body born to > > be you will follow karma until its destruction. > > > > Hence Buddha also not exempted from karma. And hence once in Buddha > > life, a person came and spitted on his face. This action to his body, > > he himself states that it is due to his past karma. So even a Buddha > > is not spared from karma. So Karma is real. > > > > Since Karma is real, there is no `free will'. All our actions are > > influenced, if you consciously watch your actions you will know. As > > long as you are influenced by any force you are not a Buddha. Not even > > the urge of brushing your teeth. > > > > Ramana Maharishi sat motionless for nearly 1.5 years. He was shifted > > by people surrounded and people who were wondering about him. He will > > not even take food kept in front of him, someone had to pour some milk > > in his mouth by force. It was by his devotees' effort he lived up to > > 72 years. But himself he did not desired to continue his bodily life. > > > > Again even in Ramana's life there were incidents of thieves attacking > > him, but again it is due to Karma, so even Sri.Ramana is not spared > > from Karma. So Karma is real and free will is illusion. > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
