Hi Joe, Thank you for the welcome, and the very nice response. What you've said certainly gets me thinking. So, here's one possibility:
"Who is the I that takes the vows?" My first thought is that the "I" who takes the vows is every bit as ephemeral as the "I" who thinks this one thought, or to be a little vulgar, the I who went to the bathroom this morning. "I" is not a lasting entity, but more of an unfolding stream of experience, and it seems to me that no two moments in that stream are identical. Incidentally, it's interesting to know that monastics repeat these vows so often -- perhaps because of the realization that the "I" who recited the vows this morning is not the same fundamental entity as the "I" who is reciting them now. Now, if that's how things are, it opens up a whole other question about where continuity comes from. Clearly my experience of "I" now bears some resemblance to who and what "I" was 1,000 moments ago. And the vows I made yesterday or a year ago have consequences for what I do now. But, I still don't see that as being relevant to free will. Here is an analogy that I'd like to try out: The trees I will pass by on my way home from work today are not the same trees that I passed by on the way to work this morning, despite being in roughly the same location and looking mostly the same. They've grown a little, their cellular structure has changed, etc., and all of those changes are conditioned and dependently arisen. Those changes have be brought about by the sun, the moisture in the soil, etc., but also (and this is where the vow thing comes in) by the state the tree was in at the time the sun hit it, the water saturated the ground, etc. So, the tree's current state is conditioned upon its past states. The tree *entity* has no enduring essence -- the trees I greet this evening are *not* the same trees I saw this morning-- but the unfolding process of this particular tree is continuous, and past states of the tree (what and how the tree was before) impose limitations on current states of the tree. Of course, in this case the tree is the mind, or the "I" who recites the vows or chooses a particular action. Viewed as an entity, that "I" dies with each new moment; viewed as a process, though, that "I" serves as a condition for future states of being. So, you have continuity, but no enduring essence; no essential self who takes the vows or chooses his next action. That's one possibility, I guess. Looking forward to hearing back from you (and others)! --- In [email protected], "Joe" wrote: > > Greetings, Fleetinginsight, > > A well-considered post! Welcome. > > Regarding the matter of free will in a Buddhist context, remember that, among > monastics and lay people, there are... "Vows". The monastics of course take > many more of the Precepts than lay people do; and, at least three times per > day, monastics in their daily practice -- and lay people, say, on sesshin or > zazenkai -- chant the four Bodhisattva Vows. > > Now, what do you make of the matter of free will, and the practice of taking, > making, and practicing according to, and in accord with... Vows? > > We can ask the same things you ask about free will: WHO takes the vows (who > makes them; who adheres to them... )? And, we can note that we can "keep" a > vow, but we might also "break" it. Granted, the Zen sect, like others, takes > hetu pratyaya -- conditioned arising -- as gospel: as reality. Yet... Vows > are considered -- known -- to have power. > > I simply put this out there for all to consider. I'll work on it, too, over > the next hours or days. > > Just a brief reply, and a "Welcome!" to the Group. > > --Joe > > --- In [email protected], "fleetinginsight" wrote: > > > > > > Greetings, all, from a new member. > > > > This is an interesting question; I thought I'd try exploring it from a > > slightly different direction. > > > > In a strictly philosophical sense, "free will" doesn't make any sense from > > a Buddhist (or Zen) framework, does it? > > > > First, free will is the notion that I have ultimate dominion over my > > choices and actions. But, of course, Buddhism teaches that there is no > > inherent or lasting "I" that could act as the controller. So, who is it > > that controls these choices? The self that appears to be in control is > > itself fleeting and arisen from causes and conditions, so it can't be that, > > can it? > > > > Second, free will usually comes with the requirement that in any particular > > situation (i.e., holding constant the forces at play), I *could have* done > > otherwise. This seems quite incoherent with the notion that all phenomena > > (including the momentary experience of the self) arise sufficiently on the > > basis of causes and conditions. The decision or choice could be different > > -- but first you'd have to find a way to change the causes and conditions > > that give rise to the self who decides. In this sense, most decisions, in > > the moment they are made couldn't have been different than how they were. > > > > So, in some sense our decisions are fully the product of our karma (I'm > > using "karma" here to simply mean conditioned patterns of perceiving, > > judging, and acting upon the world). But karma is not fixed (there's that > > darn impermanence thing again). Karma, too, is subject to causes and > > conditions. One such condition, mindfulness, seems to "open up" our > > habitual ways of acting to alternative possibilities. Mindfulness means > > awareness of the arising and ceasing of particular perceptions or thoughts. > > It seems that this awareness takes away some of the usual "power" of > > habits and allows for alternative courses of action. This isn't really > > "free will" in any meaningful sense, but it is greater flexibility in our > > ways of relating to the world, which itself sews the seeds for future > > behavior. > > > > Anyway, these are the musings of my karmic mind. ;) I'd love to hear what > > others have to say. > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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